Pub Rock Shoalhaven

Good morning everyone and welcome to one of the National Portrait Gallery's "In Conversations". My name's Sandra Bruce and I'm the Director of Collection and Exhibitions here at the Portrait Gallery and in a minute we're going to be chatting to a couple of awesome locals from Nowra on the South Coast and New South Wales, Paul Green and George Bishop. But first let's chat about being on Zoom. Now we love to see your faces so by all means turn on your cameras so that I can say hi. I reckon I might recognise some of you when you dial in. But don't forget to keep your microphones on mute. If you want to join in the conversation, if you've got a question you want to ask to test people's knowledge, people being not me but Paul and George, send your questions or send your comments through the chat function of Zoom and we can capture that here and I can pick up on some of those while we're talking today. Do let us know where you're dialing in from as well because here in Canberra we're broadcasting from the land of the Ngunnawal and Ngambri peoples and I would like to pay our respects to elders past and present. We also of course extend our respects to any First Nations people that might be joining us today and I also on behalf of the Shoalhaven Regional Gallery and our guests today like to acknowledge the First Nations people of the Shoalhaven area who are speakers of the Dharawal and Dhurga languages. Alright we've got Bridget from Gadigal Country High, Bridget nice to meet you. Now I'm going to introduce our special guests who are going to I reckon have a lot to talk about with our exhibition that we've got touring in Nour at the moment, Pub Rock, Paul Green and George Bishop and we've asked them to join us today because if you can't tell by the name of the exhibition, Pub Rock is something that's dear to a lot of Australians hearts and it's about the live music scene in Australia. It's a little bit retro, we get to reminisce quite a bit you know I mean really when we look at Pub Rock from our perspective when we decided to curate an exhibition like this we thought where does it start, it kind of starts in the 70s and it kicks right through into the 90s, maybe it tips into this century a little bit but when you look at the I don't know maybe 80 or so photographs that are in the exhibition we really hit some sweet spots around the live music scene in the 70s, 80s and 90s I think and we look at the different venues it's not just about the pubs it's also about uni bars you know outdoor stages festivals, RSLs, surf clubs you know anywhere that you could get sticky carpet, stinky cigarette smoke and decent music that's what we're talking about with an exhibition like this. I think it was really great for the Portrait Gallery to go down this road I mean we curated this exhibition in 2020, it was something that we wanted to offer our audiences coming out of that first series of lockdowns because it was a really interesting time to live in and we wanted to sort of be able to talk about celebrating and remembering when we got to have shared experiences and how important music is to us around storytelling and collaborating and sharing joy and so that's kind of the approach we took with Pub Rock and as we have this chat today I reckon Hector who is one of my awesome colleagues who is behind the scenes he's probably going to flash up some examples of some of the works in the show but Paul and George I don't know should I dob in Paul first one or you go first when you came to the exhibition launch and you had your first look at the exhibition what were some of the things that really hit you when you were looking at some of the photographs? There's a lot of my heroes on the wall here they all probably had a part to play in my motivation and my inspiration musically and also the journey that the music has taken me on and I remember as an underage sneaking into pubs as bands were coming through playing in places like the Ex Servos or the Bridgetown and having my first experience of I guess it's sort of almost like a tribal thing that was for me my first experience of that of a subculture in a way and the music really spoke to me and so to see all these people on the walls including Molly Mildrem from centre over here that goes back to my early childhood watching Countdown and that's basically been my with the start of my education as a musician and the legacy that all of the people in the world who have left behind are basically what we've all learnt from and what has brought us to today. Yeah so tell us a little bit about your musical career I mean you've performed with some of the musos that are on the walls there right? Yeah so I was a musician but I didn't really know any musicians so I didn't really have any influence I was actually working in a totally different field but luckily I came across I was working as a musician so I was just playing in pubs and things and I was sort of making up songs but it was something I was kind of ashamed of so I remember playing in a pubs band in the early 80s and saying how about we just make up our own song everyone was sort of laughing at me that you can't just make up songs but so it was we ended up doing that but that sort of making your own music and working as an artist is very different to working as an entertainer everyone does a bit of both I think but having I was really lucky to work with Rob Hurst from Midnight Oil he was one of the first musos that I got to work with I actually have a band as a sports person as well I was a track and field athlete and I was training for the Sydney Olympics and I didn't make the team but I ended up working on a project with Rob Hurst which was called Olympic Record and it had diesel and it had a whole bunch of Australian artists playing on it and I got to be in the house band and then I ended up joining Rob Hurst's band Ghostwriters and he was one of the first people that said to me you know you could have a career as a musician if you wanted to work towards that I had nobody to know what was involved and he was kind of the first person that said well it's coming write some songs with me and I played with their band and I sort of learned as I was watching and couldn't really ask for a better mentor to have although another thing that sort of happened around about that time was that I was I'm very I was very sort of a lot of oppositional defiance and identify as a pirate so I can understand that that makes sense I didn't want to do the mainstream thing I didn't see that as being I saw a kind of a new problem rising the more kind of connected everything was becoming with the internet I could see this disconnect also happening with communities and people being like pokies in the pubs and people being torn away from that sense of that tribal community and having that sort of connection and it becoming very online and very sort of controlled by mainstream media and quite sort of becoming more and more contrived and less organic more kind of controlled by the corporate side of things and less controlled by that tribal thing that I really loved about my only days of music so I decided to start just putting out my own records avoiding the record labels avoiding the industry altogether pretty much going with my with I wasn't really didn't really know as a pirate back then but that's pretty much what I did and I made albums and sold them out the back of my van as I traveled around the country and every person I met I kind of connected with and got the email address initially it was like postal addresses there was a few artists that really inspired me with that Arne de Franco who would sort of someone I discovered through Woodford Folk Festival and she had this sort of empire and created this empire on her own record label and very much used music as a social tool and I thought that was really powerful and really spoke to me so it's something that I still try to try to do today also so she had sort of started her own record label I thought well you can do that I'd been offered record like record deals actually I was sort of but I felt like I was just being I didn't know what I didn't know what it was about I didn't understand anything and I felt totally vulnerable so I just made it I figured out if I could go to I spent I went to Damien Girard studio in Sydney I recorded between 10pm and 3am in the morning and I think I made my first album for around about $1500 and then then I got my own CDs pressed and I sold enough CDs in the first in six months to I needed to get another batch done so I made more CDs and then a year and a half later I made another album and I sold that and then I started touring further and wider and it was enough to sustain me and I fame was never really the objective for me it was just about being able to create music that I felt was honest and felt was coming from the heart kind of seeing a bit of a social thing happening with disconnect and the need for communities and for people to connect through music and I saw that as a great way to do it and that's pretty much what I did and then last year I put out my tenth record I think one of my albums was an Aria finalist the best blues and roots album I did with License for ABC music had a really great team of people helping me out of manager Neil Richards and Sean Tell and Jeff Bell as a booking agent who had worked with Slim Dusty and Casey Chambers so I had some really great people helping me and managed to I still managed to do it so it's still my job but now I'm working more as a producer I've started my own record label releasing other artists I help artists develop their music record and release it and that's sort of I'm kind of at the start of that journey but I'm really enjoying it do you know what I love about that Paul it's kind of a really nice segue into bringing George into the conversation because as someone that's part of you know part of the scene it's not just about being a muso is that it's about offering opportunities to others and you've got a venue so I mean a big part of what you do is around supporting live music and inviting people in right yeah there's a band who hasn't been there today and we've got a gig on the weekend actually for the next few months every weekend we've got a gig that's pretty cool so what George why was it that you decided that what you wanted to do was create a space for live music you know what was it that sort of got you started down that road an opportunity come up where there's there's a space to do that like another building that was in my family so I can run down and as a kid like I was in there much and around it used to be a seeding produce shop selling hay and seeds for agricultural supplies alright then so it's a bit like a shed in the middle of town and then it's getting a bit kind of like nothing was happening there and yeah they back us they said okay after a while and that like what a persuasion they said okay and it's been great yeah so it's been going for a while now how long have you been part of the mix in now I grew up here then actually first place I moved away to was Canberra I was cutting my teeth back same like when people buy and see these and things then travel a lot coming back now and then but I moved back the summer before the bush fire and I was doing just trading work sort of thing and then quit that work and started setting up the venue and and then bush fires and then covert and so it's sort of been stop and start but it was getting a bit of a roll on yeah yeah yeah so what was it like what was it like coming into the gallery which is not necessarily the sort of a venue that you you know associate with you know where you guys put your hearts which is about being really active and a bit like sweaty and messy and grotty and having a good time bit rowdy obviously with live music what's it like coming into a gallery and looking at an exhibition of people doing their thing on stage is it is it a bit weird or does it make a lot of sense to you to see an exhibition like this the visuals always been a I think it's always been a really important part of music I know it sounds silly but the analogy I make is people go to restaurants and they they don't they don't look at food or taste it and order it like you have to kind of be shown a representation of them and usually it's visual especially to go to those dodgy Chinese places which are you know see a photo or something and that represents it and I think a lot of photography is its own art form and is a separate a separate thing obviously it has a really magical way of being able to put into like show what the band is about show what their character is their ethos their energy in a way and capture that in a different medium which is which is pretty amazing I think yeah but the visual element has always been part of it so I see there's a very different separate expression and separate art form and a way of capturing that expression but and it's always kind of been what sell is the music or what helps what I like helps the audience find the band or find the music that they love I think there's a lot of that in the visual representation sometimes before they hear music you know they might see if you see AC/DC like a photo of them live on stage you instantly kind of understand what they're about that sort of you know stepping into the business with like branding of what of what you what your music is all about yeah absolutely I mean actually I think Hector's just brought one up now of Angus still looking like a schoolboy although he's out of uniform but you know I think that was a question I was going to have so you mentioned you know there's a portrait there's a great there's a great black and white head shot there of Molly in the exhibition but were there any of the live sort of what we'd called documentary portraits that captured either of you and and sort of brought back memories because I think that's the other element isn't it of an exhibition like this it really does bring back memories yeah I've seen I think what this shows in you know in 2023 we we kind of have this we're working now there's people I've met George and I both working now with the tools we've got you know with what we've got at our disposal to try and contribute even a small part because the music of tomorrow depends on people doing it and having that experience and so and we're kind of standing on the shoulders of giants and the sense of the people here and I feel like what this exhibition captures really well is the origins of that story for us it's origins although it goes much further back like the easy beats I still think are one of the most important Australian bands the big brothers of Malcolm and Angus from ACDC yeah at the music they made the way that they did it there's so many people that are invisible in the music industry and I think intentionally so because for every band that you see on this on the walls here there was a team of people managers record labels publicists tour managers sound guys guitar techs there was there's a whole and a whole tribe behind every every band that's on the wall here and they're all part of they're all part of that which is I think it captures that a lot of the ones that really take me back are like seeing like Minot oil with chicken wire in front of them I've been known their story and being close to them seeing how they kind of hold themselves today as musicians and that they are actually musicians that that's what they love it that's what they do they're not in it for fame they're not in it for they see it's a business obviously but they just want to make good music that's going to be remembered and that's that was one of the most important things that I learned from those guys that with all the glamour and all the the kind of the way you interact with music now it's radio and internet and you know youtube and video clips and going live and it's all changing faster than anyone can keep up with yeah I mean that essence that that core essence of it being about playing music and making music that just makes you feel good making music that engages an audience that people can relate to it's what it's all about and that's I think what these photos really do for me yeah and George would you say I reckon it keeps dragging people back right I mean we know that the famous frontman of midnight oil sort of diverted his career for a few years and he he decided to go and do something else for a little while it was fairly high profile but you know midnight oil were on the road again just over this last summer and they played in or spring and summer and they played in Canberra I think back in February Peter Garrett was back in Canberra but he was back doing what we first knew and loved about him yeah as the frontman of midnight oil so George would you say that's exactly that's very much what music is and what the live scene is it does it is something that's always in your blood and you're always going to be brought back to it yeah yeah it's amazing what I was thinking about when Paul was talking to me sound like live music and being there at the venues and in the you know like it's so different from being in the gallery that's like being peaceful in here and you can look at the pictures and no one else is here where at the concert it's just this collective energy and it's humming like Paul was saying there's a lot of people involved not just some musicians and everyone that's there there's like this really good vibe and and you come here and you can see pictures like the photographer who was there at the time was able to capture and um and we can see you know like afterwards a little bit that in in the visual arts yeah yeah it's interesting because when we were working on this show we had some great conversations with some of those you know the way Paul was describing them as the invisible people that contributed you know like Wendy McDougal who does these amazing you know shots she's so good at what she does when she's in that live environment and there's some really great examples of her you know gig photography in this exhibition and um it really does help I think connect us to the experience even if it is in a gallery you know yeah yeah it does it has sort of every story has a beginning and quite often it's kind of inspired by a previous story I think there's a and this I think finds those kind of defines those beginnings because when things begin like with what George is doing here like in now having a home and a place for people to incubate their music and connect and find their tribe and find their people not just bands but the venue like what George is doing as well it's like it brings a whole section of the community together because they love what George does and they love the the vibe that it creates and it makes people feel connected and we look back now on the success stories and this you know time has proven these to be the beginnings of of bands and art and music that has become kind of entrenched in the Australian psyche that's part of who we are but I knew that when it started no one knew that's what was going to happen and I remember listening to me nod oil for the first time and just be like what is that I don't get it like I was a probably now it's probably eight or nine I do remember the moment really clearly of hearing that and going listen that's not what I thought music was about but who is to know how important that step was going to be for the consequence like the consequences of those steps are something that you know the the sorry shirts at the Olympic opening closing ceremony like it led to that which totally changes the way people think and that's something I kind of try and impart to younger songwriters and aspiring artists now is that it might just seem like you're just wasting time I know when I when I a lot of my youth as a musician I was kind of discouraged it's like you're only going to get a real job you know that's sort of please show you but it's been my job ever since and you never know when someone's going to come up with something that just might change the world and I think that's for me what keeps me excited about it you can get really really burnt out really quickly if you worry too much about success or fame or basically the results of what it is that you're doing because everyone wants to be successful everyone wants to do well I want to just be able to make me living out of it that's all I really want but you never know when someone's going to walk through that door that is going to be the future that's going to be the person that the next generation are going to look up to and I think everyone one of the beautiful things is everyone has a shot at that yeah no I agree I'm going to ask Hector to bring up slide I've got numbers here slide four because if we're going to talk about you never know what might happen particularly when it when we're talking about you know the creative process and collaboration all that kind of thing I mean we look back at what poor Kelly's gotten up to over the years we don't I mean we could talk for hours about Kelly but 1991 was the year that Treaty came out now that Yothu Yindi song that was written by Yunupingu and Kelly getting together around a campfire and working up that song Treaty and we know what an impact you know that's had and then you know I think it was around the same time that he's working with Kev Carmody on From Little Things Big Things Grow so it is sorry if I make an a noise on my mic so it is you know it does speak to that idea that not only not only is it a case of creativity sparking something can you just don't know until it's done but it also kind of speaks to the sense of community in the music industry and how lovely and collaborative it can be in Australia and really Australia is a pretty small country in that respect isn't it kind of there's lots of little interconnections it's almost kind of like a spider's web. Yeah I remember I went to LA I went to New York after I went to the Canadian Music Week and then I caught the Amtrak to New York through the train from Canada to New York and standing on the river of the Hudson and looking at the New Jersey skyline and then having New York behind me and kind of getting around my head that within my field of vision was probably the same amount of people as there were dispersed across our entire continent and having driven across the Nullarbor to do gigs a dozen times maybe that plays an enormous factor with us with our population is definitely a big part of that yeah yeah you're absolutely right I think for people to embark even just to start making music to start expressing themselves I think it's near impossible on your own I really think you do need to have a team and have a community around you that can be supportive when you say is it feel good yes there's a lot of good vibes as well but the reality of it is it's really tough it's just tough and gruelling physically financially you know a lot of people like I paid my price personally and like I wouldn't change it but it has been hard and it's AC/DC if you want to be on stage and screen look out it's tough and mean it's that's true because it's competitive and it's also there's only there's so much music uploaded these days and I'm very little of a play very little of it cuts through and everyone wants to be the person that cuts through there's an industry that makes a lot of money like it's a pretty large percentage of our gross domestic products the amount of money that the whole music industry makes I think the arts industry is something like 4.6% of our GDP yeah right yeah um and music is a large portion of that so it does it's scarce on the ground it's like there's not a lot of there's not a lot of time in the spotlight you know like there's not a lot of um there's a lot of energy that like keep it all going so it's everyone has to fight for it but I think what that does is it makes Australia know it's truly tough yeah that's good like you can't you're not going to get away with it if you're not because there's going to be another great band playing the next night I thought with the next band to be able to put out records at the same time so without without providing the space for that to kind of bring the community here nothing that's um he's he's like incubating new music for that's going to be coming out that we might be listening to in 20 years from now yeah well we just don't know do we I mean there's so much there's so much wealth of content online and everybody it's it's most people's first port of call we hear more and more people nobody has televisions anymore they're using their phones or their laptops or whatever because it's all about streaming and all that kind of thing but um I think one thing that Australia continues to embrace even with gentrification is live venues you know there's struggles I mean I'm I've got a bit of history in Melbourne so you know we we know about you know the struggles of the espion over the years and places like the tote which is currently going through a challenging calling what at the moment challenging time in Collingwood but if it's not for you know there's always something to be said for the live experience isn't there George it's not just music's beautiful in all its in all its means and and online and through headphones is great but there's something about a live performance that you can't get through a device is there a challenge for musicians because uh you know if you record music or if you make visual art you can just be at home and your work is off doing its thing without you whereas uh if you want to if you want to you have to play music you have to be there where the people are you can't just be sitting out at home or what do you have to you have to go out and stay up late and have party and things yeah now yeah well there's parties yeah no there's parties isn't there yeah um we have to behave ourselves here in this forum but um I think can you bring your memory right right back to that first first time you decided to put yourself out there and put yourself on stage in front of an audience and what that was like was it adrenaline was it butterflies was it a combination of the two I can't I can't I can't know I don't know when I was when I was really young and still learning how to play guitar there's I remember there was like a little thing that I had to do where I I played the the start of the song missed most of the song and just what happened to you I um I had actually my the the moment that I realized that you could you could have music could be something you do for a living I didn't really realize at the time I was actually in Canberra I was in the Civic for work experience in nine I think it wasn't 14 I had and I was away from my family so I was staying with a friend who was an architect and my dad wanted me to be an architect so I was I was there anyway I'd spend all my money you gave me like 20 bucks which was a lot of money for for a 14 year old I think about 1985 or I remember before or something um and I'd spend it all on music so I couldn't have thought the latest talking heads out or whatever it was that I did and I ran out of money and I was hungry and I had my car with me and I was like I'm really I'm starving I need to eat so I actually went and busked in Civic no license writing and I was playing Johnny Diesel and the injectors don't need love I remember exactly what it was and I got five bucks in my guitar case and that was enough for me to get like a pie and a dream and there was this kind of this moment happened where I was like hang on a second I was there for work experience but it wasn't the job that I was there and I was I think that might have been the moment I didn't want to I still when I'm playing though what the hell am I doing here why am I why am I doing I thought that I have this then when I get on stage and I play it's like oh this feels good I feel I think this feels right and I and I but there's always that thing before I go on stage every single time I'm like what am I doing here why is this why is this cool and then when I play that there's a thing pathos I'm fascinated with play so pathos because I've also so another band I play with the spy versus spy they were my I remember them but I'm managed by the same guy that managed me not all um Gary Morris and um but they were like they were never on countdown uh like the music was introduced to me by friends that I was playing the band with and we used to cover their songs and I was really inspired by this band because they had these music as a bit of a social tool a lot of social commentary like don't tear it down they're talking about preserving um old architecture how dang it but it was like but it was it made it cool but it was awesome um anyway this is forward 20 years I got a call from their manager and said they needed a new lead singer they knew that I was working with real person and they asked me to play for them and I'm touring Brazil with them twice and playing in front of I think it was about 10,000 people in uh in Rio de Janeiro with everyone because the spy versus spy are massive in Brazil they're huge we play on the radio all the time and I was kind of like the caretaker I wasn't the band I was just but I'm a fan so I wanted to play like the fans would want to hear you know and doing that in Brazil in front of 10,000 people and when you're talking about having feeling good there's something that happens when you've got 10,000 people singing what you're singing back at you that I've got to say is the best drug I've ever had it is totally addictive it is um it's got a really nice clean come down and no you know it's it is it is and then part of it I think is also addictive like it is it is definitely a dopamine spike or something I don't know if it's love to me like that's probably the but intense um and that is uh that was a rule because I having you know driven to the gig set up my own pa played in the front bar of some place out in the country on my way to like Adelaide or Perth wherever it was to do my gig you know with my family as well a lot of the time they um all the rock and roll stories of like bountiful writers and you know after parties and that sort of thing and all the shenanigans that went on with that all just seemed like like like a myth to me it's like that's not how it is it's actually just really hard work it takes a bit of time and I don't make keeps of money and it's risky and um but but in Brazil I got a little glimpse of that 80s uh hedonistic kind of celebration of rock and roll and I'm I feel privileged that I got to just witness that for a minute I don't think I would survive long if that was my day if that's what it was like now um because basically what I'm doing now is running a really small cottage industry business still selling CDs out the back of my van metaphorically now it's just online yeah yeah but I it was to experience that and what I have also done like plates for um Katie Griffin at a packed Enmore theater and you know I have had some pretty amazing moments and it is what kind of inspires me to work through the the hard times when you're playing when you're doing a door deal in like somewhere like Geraldton or Melbourne and no one knows me by five I've spent $300 on petrol just to get there and you know that's that's the reality of it but to me it all feels like a little bit like tests if you want to if you want to kind of move on to the next thing you've got to you've got to prove it you got to prove you really want it and you just have to you do have to really want it and yeah um that's kind of I think what the people on the walls here kind of inspired me like they worked hard the story of the divinals is a really amazing story how hard they worked and how far they went and never quite you know they were the next big thing and it didn't they put out their their last album it was like they finally got that know who I mean geez they made some great music geez they've got a lot of great inspiration for other musicians and what they did is amazing but I feel like having sort of studied their story a bit I think they always felt like a bit disappointed uh Rick Rosman who was the bass player in the band I knew quite well and there's that that sense of like it was never quite enough and I think a lot of musicians feel that that they kind of no matter how hard they work or where they get to it's like you're always kind of aspiring for more um uh Colin Hayley from Men at Work just looking his photo over there yeah he recently received a Ted Albert award at the APRAs for a contribution he did that's right yeah and after playing at the closing ceremony of the Olympics and down under being his global hit he spent the last 15 years traveling around with him and an acoustic guitar playing gigs to you know it's very small groups but he does it and he still provides a lot of joy and he's happy with that like he is still enjoying he still loves it and he's still his music is still speaking speaking to people because of that yeah no you're absolutely right now do you know what I reckon that is a really great opportunity for us to talk about a recent really interesting gig that you had where sort of the arts collided and that was the opening night of the exhibition right in this room that we're sitting in at the moment tell us a little bit about you um rocking up the end of the room there with a bit of acoustic action and you were taking requests from the audience weren't you? Well so they said they wanted a live thing uh the uh Rihanna at the at the art gallery who's the reason we're all here so thank you for for bringing us their current visitors here into this forum she said she wanted to put a gig on and something that reflected pub rock then it was going to rain so we had to change everything last minute because we were going to go out in the courtyard here this beautiful courtyard but we couldn't do that and my inspiration was to be like not be me like just to be a generic 80s band that was rocking up and doing their thing you know with all the bravado and so it's kind of in character with you know I love that thing of the the artist who's like playing to five people but they're still acting the rock star you know like still in character in a way I've always um I've always found that really interesting and fun in a way so I kind of uh I took on this person like I said I study I study Australian music all the time I have a radio show on local community radio and I spend two hours just playing the music of one band and I research their story and I've learned so much from doing that that's just so we came in with like choir boys and we did some like classic Aus-rock covers and then I got people to point out of an artist on the wall and ask for a question that band and I managed I think I managed I think it was one or two I didn't know but I managed to just like having a lifetime of being heckled I managed to just like sidestep that and uh but the easy beats we played yeah she's so fine so I asked for an excess and played never terrace apart and I had with me Sid Green on drums who's played he plays with the 1920 they're a really big band that just played blues first at the moment he's now playing with Kasey Chambers he's also played with Bayota who's like one of my favorite Australian artists one of the most underrated Australian users I reckon and then Neil Beaver who has played with the Atlantics to play with the Spy vs Spy which is how we met both musicians are really highly respect and I've learned a lot from both of those guys too so yeah to join them and just do this kind of impromptu things zero rehearsal uh and just that's why I like working with these guys because I can just kind of be in the moment and pick up wherever you're at and they just know what you're going to do next oh well that sounds fantastic look I think I've got to let you guys get on with your day and I want to thank you so much for joining us for me with us putting the exhibition together in Canberra at the National Portrait Gallery in 2020 and then we sent it on the road it's been on tour and it's now in Nour and it's been so great to talk to you guys and I love that what is it is it triple you I mean you've got your radio program on triple you Paul and with L horses it's almost like Nour is just one more chapter in the story isn't it in terms of now it's actually I reckon is a really happening place and a lot of it's got to do with George and and what he's doing there and if you that experiencing that that vibe that George is talking about that that the energy that is of a crowd if you want to experience the real thing like I would highly recommend coming to Nour it now has really good coffee and it has L horses here hooking whatever's playing whatever weekend you can get down here and and experience experience that because I think what George is doing is like it's the real McCoy and it's definitely it's a it's something everyone has to experience in lifetimes to bring kids because it's all ages too right kids can come on yeah yeah so kids are free kids are free oh that's even better isn't it yeah get them in young get them in young get it educate educate them so I'm doing a runner shows this week with our some record label doing finding film wars on Saturday it's like a family gig but I've got seven bands all playing my band as well as a bunch of artists I'm working with and I've got a tenured bow and her band swamp days is headlining yeah we do server and what camp let's know it Saturday finding film wars and then the Tomerong School of Arts on Sunday it's a yeah it's all kids free the Tomerong School of Arts is a great venue too it's like it's like a bush hall and it still has that that community vibe about it which is great so that sounds great now listen I just want to give a shout out to Anna who has been reminiscing she describes herself as a geriatric millennial but she's saying the first gig she remembers is Body Jar at the Marlin in Ulladulla in 1999 so right at the 10th century oh and oh Bridget's back from Gadigal country fun in the sun in Canberra in 1976 it was the Bay City Rollers bloody hell not only but that would have been an awesome gig listen guys thank you so much and thank you to Rayma who is my counterpart at Shoalhaven it's this has been such a lovely chat and I know we could just keep going and going but enjoy the exhibition and we'll look forward to catching up with you next time we're in town thanks for having us see you [BLANK_AUDIO]