1 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:06,633 - Hello, everyone, 2 00:00:06,633 --> 00:00:08,420 and welcome to another "In Conversation" 3 00:00:08,420 --> 00:00:10,480 with the National Portrait Gallery. 4 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,170 We're so excited to have you all coming in today 5 00:00:13,170 --> 00:00:14,300 into our Zoom room 6 00:00:14,300 --> 00:00:17,080 for what I'm sure will be a very interesting conversation 7 00:00:17,080 --> 00:00:19,900 between our curator, Penny Grist and Hoda Afshar, 8 00:00:19,900 --> 00:00:22,500 who is a dear friend of the National Portrait Gallery, 9 00:00:22,500 --> 00:00:25,300 former winner of the National Photographic Portrait Prize, 10 00:00:25,300 --> 00:00:27,770 and also a judge of that Photographic Portrait Prize, 11 00:00:27,770 --> 00:00:30,780 but today we're gonna hear about her photography, 12 00:00:30,780 --> 00:00:33,750 and I can't wait to share that all with you. 13 00:00:33,750 --> 00:00:34,870 Before we get underway, 14 00:00:34,870 --> 00:00:37,440 I'd like to acknowledge that I'm broadcasting today 15 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:38,420 from the beautiful lands 16 00:00:38,420 --> 00:00:41,110 of the Ngambri and Ngunnawal peoples here in Canberra, 17 00:00:41,110 --> 00:00:42,570 as are most of my colleagues. 18 00:00:42,570 --> 00:00:45,150 However, we are distributed around Canberra. 19 00:00:45,150 --> 00:00:47,360 We're not actually at the gallery today. 20 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,880 We're still in a little bit of hybrid working arrangements 21 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:53,600 so I am in my bedroom, 22 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:55,340 and I think Penny is in her living room, 23 00:00:55,340 --> 00:00:57,720 but we are, for all intents and purposes, 24 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,400 coming to you from the National Portrait Gallery. 25 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:01,560 We're super interested to see 26 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,430 where you are all coming to us from. 27 00:01:04,430 --> 00:01:05,390 If you'd like to let us know 28 00:01:05,390 --> 00:01:08,000 the lands on which your zooming in from, 29 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:08,833 that would be great. 30 00:01:08,833 --> 00:01:10,570 Please pop it into the chat, 31 00:01:10,570 --> 00:01:13,310 in the Zoom chat at the bottom of your browser. 32 00:01:13,310 --> 00:01:14,550 That's also a really great way 33 00:01:14,550 --> 00:01:16,800 to interact with us throughout the programme. 34 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:18,340 If you'd like to pop any questions 35 00:01:18,340 --> 00:01:20,130 or comments in there, 36 00:01:20,130 --> 00:01:22,510 I'll try and share as many of those as I can 37 00:01:22,510 --> 00:01:24,630 without presenters, today. 38 00:01:24,630 --> 00:01:26,710 So without any further ado, 39 00:01:26,710 --> 00:01:27,980 I'd like to hand over to Penny 40 00:01:27,980 --> 00:01:29,563 who'll introduce Hoda to us. 41 00:01:30,990 --> 00:01:32,280 - Thank you so much, Gill. 42 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:37,200 Now this is a huge treat for me to begin this year, 43 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,740 talking with one of the Portrait Gallery's old friends, 44 00:01:40,740 --> 00:01:41,690 Hoda Afshar. 45 00:01:41,690 --> 00:01:46,120 It's been a huge pleasure for me to catch up with Hoda, 46 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,840 preparing this programme and today, 47 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:50,310 and to share her beautiful work. 48 00:01:50,310 --> 00:01:53,710 So Hoda's coming to you from Naarm, Melbourne, 49 00:01:53,710 --> 00:01:55,959 on the lands of the Bunurong Boon Wurrung 50 00:01:55,959 --> 00:01:57,870 and Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung peoples 51 00:01:57,870 --> 00:01:59,790 of the Eastern Kulin Nation, 52 00:01:59,790 --> 00:02:00,930 and as Gill said, 53 00:02:00,930 --> 00:02:04,940 I'm here in the Ngunnawal, Ngambri lands 54 00:02:04,940 --> 00:02:06,603 here in Canberra or Canberra. 55 00:02:08,020 --> 00:02:11,940 So I thought we should begin this talk, Hoda, 56 00:02:11,940 --> 00:02:15,630 and begin the story in four places, (chuckles) 57 00:02:15,630 --> 00:02:20,630 so we're gonna start in Northern Iran in 2014, 58 00:02:20,910 --> 00:02:24,350 in the Portrait Gallery in 2015, 59 00:02:24,350 --> 00:02:29,350 and also in London and Melbourne in 2020 and 2021, 60 00:02:29,470 --> 00:02:32,700 and now all these places are going to lead back 61 00:02:32,700 --> 00:02:37,170 to your book and forthcoming exhibitions, "Speak the Wind" 62 00:02:37,170 --> 00:02:40,910 that we are gonna focus on talking about today. 63 00:02:40,910 --> 00:02:42,630 But just to lead us in there, 64 00:02:42,630 --> 00:02:45,720 Hoda, can you bring up Hoda's 2015 65 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:49,067 National Photographic Portrait Prize-winning work, 66 00:02:49,067 --> 00:02:50,787 "Portrait of Ali." 67 00:02:53,780 --> 00:02:57,350 Now, Hoda, I wasn't involved in judging 68 00:02:57,350 --> 00:02:58,570 or curating this prize, 69 00:02:58,570 --> 00:03:03,570 but I did travel doing the curatorial talks with this work 70 00:03:03,810 --> 00:03:07,210 when that exhibition travelled around Australia, 71 00:03:07,210 --> 00:03:10,980 and it's an extraordinary piece of work, 72 00:03:10,980 --> 00:03:14,990 and I would love to hear your reflections as an artist, 73 00:03:14,990 --> 00:03:18,800 looking back at both this portrait 74 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:23,800 as well as the experience of that time in 2015. 75 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:28,080 - Thank you so much, Penny, 76 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:31,350 thanks for inviting me to be on the programme today, 77 00:03:31,350 --> 00:03:33,340 and it's always a pleasure 78 00:03:33,340 --> 00:03:35,990 connecting again to National Portrait Gallery. 79 00:03:35,990 --> 00:03:38,650 I think I mentioned it a few times to you 80 00:03:38,650 --> 00:03:43,650 that how special it is, that place, that museum to me 81 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:45,690 and the events of that year 82 00:03:45,690 --> 00:03:50,370 and winning the National Portrait Prize in 2015 83 00:03:50,370 --> 00:03:52,480 played a huge role in my career 84 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:54,990 and it was at that point that, 85 00:03:54,990 --> 00:03:57,260 you know, like being a migrant in Australia 86 00:03:57,260 --> 00:04:00,040 and being really passionate about what you do 87 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:04,400 but then also not knowing whether you would have a place 88 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,630 or your voice would be recognised 89 00:04:07,630 --> 00:04:10,410 in those institutions at any point, 90 00:04:10,410 --> 00:04:12,440 it was like a booster to my career 91 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,330 and it gave so much confidence to me 92 00:04:15,330 --> 00:04:18,950 and motivation to continue doing what I do, 93 00:04:18,950 --> 00:04:23,390 and I'm always very grateful for that. 94 00:04:23,390 --> 00:04:25,990 The portrait that I made of Ali 95 00:04:25,990 --> 00:04:30,990 was part of a bigger project that is still ongoing, 96 00:04:31,280 --> 00:04:33,470 called "In the Exodus, I Love You More." 97 00:04:33,470 --> 00:04:38,470 It's about my relationship to Iran as a migrant, 98 00:04:38,710 --> 00:04:41,650 and I continue making work for the series 99 00:04:41,650 --> 00:04:42,770 every time I return 100 00:04:42,770 --> 00:04:44,580 because I return quite regularly, 101 00:04:44,580 --> 00:04:46,060 my whole family lives there, 102 00:04:46,060 --> 00:04:49,710 and I started making it as, 103 00:04:49,710 --> 00:04:52,523 like it was very personal to kind of, 104 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:54,720 like when I'm in Iran, 105 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:56,460 I'm a very different photographer, 106 00:04:56,460 --> 00:04:57,850 I carry a camera, 107 00:04:57,850 --> 00:05:00,110 I have the urge to make pictures of things. 108 00:05:00,110 --> 00:05:02,350 It's the desire to record moment 109 00:05:03,350 --> 00:05:04,680 which is very different here. 110 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:06,070 When I make pictures here, 111 00:05:06,070 --> 00:05:09,270 I start with an idea and I construct it, 112 00:05:09,270 --> 00:05:11,240 so I make the pictures here 113 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:12,910 but I take pictures over there. 114 00:05:12,910 --> 00:05:15,410 So it was like part of the same process 115 00:05:15,410 --> 00:05:16,750 of making that series 116 00:05:16,750 --> 00:05:20,610 and keep adding more pictures as I travel around Iran, 117 00:05:20,610 --> 00:05:25,550 and, yeah, it was one of those really magical moments 118 00:05:25,550 --> 00:05:28,380 that most photographers experience in their career 119 00:05:28,380 --> 00:05:33,380 like I was walking around that landscape in north of Iran 120 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:35,350 which is really foggy, 121 00:05:35,350 --> 00:05:37,570 and I was staying in a village 122 00:05:37,570 --> 00:05:39,040 that was above the clouds, 123 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,590 basically, it was hours of travelling through 124 00:05:41,590 --> 00:05:43,520 and getting to that point 125 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,540 and I was making pictures of horses and trees 126 00:05:47,540 --> 00:05:49,470 and then at some point I turned around, 127 00:05:49,470 --> 00:05:53,010 I saw him standing or appearing through the fog 128 00:05:53,930 --> 00:05:55,100 in that landscape, 129 00:05:55,100 --> 00:05:58,360 and I kept asking him if I can take his picture, 130 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:02,640 but he just only offered me little berries in return, 131 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:04,680 and he was very curiously looking 132 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,090 at my big, medium-format camera. 133 00:06:07,090 --> 00:06:08,670 So when I was taking the picture, 134 00:06:08,670 --> 00:06:10,630 because it's analogue film, 135 00:06:10,630 --> 00:06:11,770 I couldn't see what I took, 136 00:06:11,770 --> 00:06:12,640 but in that moment, 137 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,370 I knew that I captured something really special, 138 00:06:16,370 --> 00:06:18,550 and when it was, when I submitted it 139 00:06:18,550 --> 00:06:20,490 for the Portrait Prize, 140 00:06:20,490 --> 00:06:21,680 I didn't really think 141 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:23,840 that people would respond to it in that way, 142 00:06:23,840 --> 00:06:27,650 and when it won the prize, it was, yeah, 143 00:06:27,650 --> 00:06:29,873 like a dream coming true for sure. 144 00:06:32,950 --> 00:06:35,220 - Hoda, it's so lovely to hear 145 00:06:35,220 --> 00:06:36,200 because that's not quite, 146 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,760 it's almost like eight, nine years ago now, 147 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,000 and it's always lovely to hear an artist 148 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,740 reflect back on work that's been really important 149 00:06:44,740 --> 00:06:49,070 and for the eagle-eyed people in the audience, 150 00:06:49,070 --> 00:06:51,580 you can actually see "Portrait of Ali" there, 151 00:06:51,580 --> 00:06:53,863 the bottom of the work there behind Hoda. 152 00:06:56,110 --> 00:06:58,094 - Yeah, it's still here in this room. 153 00:06:58,094 --> 00:07:00,594 (both laughs) 154 00:07:01,820 --> 00:07:05,916 - So, let's go to the next set of two places 155 00:07:05,916 --> 00:07:08,400 that we're starting this story, 156 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:10,110 so London and Melbourne. 157 00:07:10,110 --> 00:07:12,920 Hoda, this is sort of just a general question 158 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:17,920 about your experience in the last two years as an artist. 159 00:07:19,370 --> 00:07:22,130 Tell us about your journey 160 00:07:22,130 --> 00:07:26,487 and your not journeys in the last two years. 161 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,560 - You mean in terms of the pandemic 162 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:32,230 and the lockdown? - Yeah. 163 00:07:32,230 --> 00:07:37,230 - I think I can claim to be the most lockdown person 164 00:07:37,433 --> 00:07:39,030 (chuckles) in the world. 165 00:07:39,030 --> 00:07:40,550 I don't think there are people 166 00:07:40,550 --> 00:07:43,470 that can compete with me on that 167 00:07:43,470 --> 00:07:47,880 because I did go through the first long lockdown 168 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,970 of Melbourne in 2020 when it started, 169 00:07:51,970 --> 00:07:54,460 and then I had a residency 170 00:07:54,460 --> 00:07:57,600 with the Australian Council for six months 171 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,410 to go to London in September 172 00:08:02,570 --> 00:08:05,230 to work on the publication of my first book 173 00:08:05,230 --> 00:08:07,050 with MACK Publishing, 174 00:08:07,050 --> 00:08:09,660 which was a very exciting event for me, 175 00:08:09,660 --> 00:08:11,200 and I didn't wanna miss out on it, 176 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,760 and Australia's lockdown seemed to be never ending 177 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:19,450 and everyone was really going through a tough time here, 178 00:08:19,450 --> 00:08:21,410 especially in Melbourne, 179 00:08:21,410 --> 00:08:22,700 and I thought I should go, 180 00:08:22,700 --> 00:08:24,960 and then I arrived in London 181 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:26,870 and after a couple of weeks, 182 00:08:26,870 --> 00:08:30,540 Melbourne opened, the lockdowns ended there 183 00:08:30,540 --> 00:08:33,060 and the Delta variant started in London 184 00:08:33,060 --> 00:08:35,750 which meant that for the entire six, seven months 185 00:08:35,750 --> 00:08:36,583 that I was there, 186 00:08:36,583 --> 00:08:39,143 it was basically trapped in an apartment, 187 00:08:40,210 --> 00:08:41,043 I couldn't leave, 188 00:08:41,043 --> 00:08:43,160 and the situation was pretty horrific there. 189 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:47,560 It was 1,000 death a day and 50,000 new cases, 190 00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:49,950 and no one would let anybody from the UK 191 00:08:49,950 --> 00:08:51,730 and I couldn't come back to Australia, 192 00:08:51,730 --> 00:08:52,996 I couldn't go to Iran, 193 00:08:52,996 --> 00:08:53,829 nowhere. 194 00:08:53,829 --> 00:08:55,330 It was just basically all the borders 195 00:08:55,330 --> 00:08:58,930 were shut to the UK people. 196 00:08:58,930 --> 00:09:02,490 So I was left there, alone in that apartment 197 00:09:02,490 --> 00:09:05,040 with all these images that I had to work with, 198 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,363 and in some ways during the lockdowns, 199 00:09:09,370 --> 00:09:13,830 I started thinking about how lucky we are as artists, 200 00:09:13,830 --> 00:09:17,370 because we're trained to work in that way 201 00:09:17,370 --> 00:09:19,070 when you're working on a project, 202 00:09:19,070 --> 00:09:22,910 you do have to go into a mental lockdown 203 00:09:22,910 --> 00:09:25,810 when you're trying to get it to that point 204 00:09:25,810 --> 00:09:29,160 of fruitation or just realisation and so on. 205 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,383 So I used that opportunity, 206 00:09:31,383 --> 00:09:36,060 as difficult as it was and mentally really draining, 207 00:09:36,060 --> 00:09:38,130 but I tried to use it positively 208 00:09:38,130 --> 00:09:42,080 and just work obsessively on that project 209 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:43,030 and at the same time, 210 00:09:43,030 --> 00:09:45,960 I was presenting a big commissioned work 211 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,410 as part of the Photo 2021 festival in Melbourne, 212 00:09:49,410 --> 00:09:50,670 which was being displayed, 213 00:09:50,670 --> 00:09:53,433 I had to complete it also when I was over there, 214 00:09:54,910 --> 00:09:57,900 so I worked like a maniac, basically 24/7, 215 00:09:57,900 --> 00:09:59,490 to ignore what was happening 216 00:09:59,490 --> 00:10:04,490 and just to also making a book with a publisher like MACK, 217 00:10:05,790 --> 00:10:09,170 really requires that level of sensitivity 218 00:10:09,170 --> 00:10:10,530 and attention to detail. 219 00:10:10,530 --> 00:10:14,470 So I use it as an opportunity to do that 220 00:10:14,470 --> 00:10:17,323 and drowned myself with images basically. 221 00:10:18,390 --> 00:10:20,460 But then when I returned to Australia, 222 00:10:20,460 --> 00:10:24,300 I had to do two weeks of quarantine in Adelaide, 223 00:10:24,300 --> 00:10:28,200 and then two, basically, a month after I arrived, 224 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,010 then the next lockdown, 225 00:10:30,010 --> 00:10:31,820 series of lockdowns have started 226 00:10:31,820 --> 00:10:33,360 so I think all together, 227 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:37,070 I did 15, 16 months of lockdowning, 228 00:10:37,070 --> 00:10:39,020 which was crazy, (chuckles) 229 00:10:39,020 --> 00:10:41,540 but I hope that I'm still sane. 230 00:10:41,540 --> 00:10:45,450 You tell me if I sound sane. (laughs) 231 00:10:45,450 --> 00:10:50,240 - I have to say, I mean, it's actually really, 232 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,460 it's really inspiring and lovely 233 00:10:52,460 --> 00:10:57,460 to hear such an optimistic and positive reflection 234 00:11:01,700 --> 00:11:03,570 on going through that experience 235 00:11:04,628 --> 00:11:07,091 and that experience as an artist 236 00:11:07,091 --> 00:11:11,620 and what you were able to create during that time 237 00:11:11,620 --> 00:11:14,270 and I suppose the journeys that you were able to take 238 00:11:15,118 --> 00:11:19,070 in your mind and imagination back through your work 239 00:11:19,070 --> 00:11:21,960 even though you were physically constrained 240 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:22,803 in that way, 241 00:11:25,157 --> 00:11:26,850 and now, and because of that work, 242 00:11:26,850 --> 00:11:29,500 you're able to share that with us through your book, 243 00:11:29,500 --> 00:11:33,530 and this book is also about to become an exhibition 244 00:11:33,530 --> 00:11:35,640 at Monash Gallery of Art this year too. 245 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,640 So let's talk about "Speak the Wind" 246 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,720 and maybe draw that connection for us 247 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,910 between "Portrait of Ali" and this particular project, 248 00:11:45,910 --> 00:11:47,166 and how it came about, 249 00:11:47,166 --> 00:11:49,610 and the title "Speak the Wind" as well. 250 00:11:49,610 --> 00:11:53,050 I'm gonna hand over to you to introduce us 251 00:11:53,050 --> 00:11:55,350 to this incredible project, Hoda. 252 00:11:55,350 --> 00:11:56,683 - Thank you so much. 253 00:11:57,730 --> 00:12:01,440 I think for those people who know a bit about my work, 254 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:02,900 they know that it kind of, 255 00:12:02,900 --> 00:12:06,310 the visual language is quite diverse, what I use. 256 00:12:06,310 --> 00:12:10,810 It's mostly connected through the themes 257 00:12:10,810 --> 00:12:11,910 that I'm interested in 258 00:12:11,910 --> 00:12:15,400 which deals with questions related to visibility, 259 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,903 representation, marginality, and so on, 260 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,710 but then, I often allow the subject 261 00:12:23,710 --> 00:12:27,370 to determine the aesthetic of what I make 262 00:12:27,370 --> 00:12:29,370 instead of using the same aesthetic 263 00:12:29,370 --> 00:12:31,090 applied to other things. 264 00:12:31,090 --> 00:12:33,230 But in the context of the "Portrait of Ali," 265 00:12:33,230 --> 00:12:38,230 as part of the series that I was making in Iran, 266 00:12:38,550 --> 00:12:41,070 this project, the "Speak the Wind" 267 00:12:41,070 --> 00:12:43,080 also grew out of that project 268 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,620 because again, it was part of the process of me 269 00:12:46,620 --> 00:12:47,850 travelling in Iran 270 00:12:47,850 --> 00:12:51,650 and for the first time, I arrived in south of Iran 271 00:12:53,778 --> 00:12:55,980 and then I was, again making pictures, 272 00:12:55,980 --> 00:12:58,240 thinking that would be part of the, 273 00:12:58,240 --> 00:12:59,660 in the "Exodus" series, 274 00:12:59,660 --> 00:13:03,720 but I became quite obsessed with the place, 275 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:05,530 and the experience that I had there 276 00:13:05,530 --> 00:13:10,060 was beyond magic or anything that I could even dream of. 277 00:13:10,060 --> 00:13:12,200 I found myself in a landscape 278 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,550 that I never encountered before, 279 00:13:14,550 --> 00:13:17,790 and the connection between the people and the landscape 280 00:13:17,790 --> 00:13:22,790 and how one determines the other, as an image maker, 281 00:13:22,830 --> 00:13:26,270 was an absolutely fascinating landscape to me. 282 00:13:26,270 --> 00:13:29,890 But then I was obsessively returning 283 00:13:29,890 --> 00:13:32,770 and wanting to know more about the history of the place, 284 00:13:32,770 --> 00:13:33,810 and the more I returned, 285 00:13:33,810 --> 00:13:35,200 the more I learned about it 286 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,710 and also through my research, 287 00:13:38,710 --> 00:13:41,530 I found out about the history of a slave trade 288 00:13:41,530 --> 00:13:43,360 in the Persian Gulf region 289 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,067 and how the entire island is believed that 290 00:13:48,450 --> 00:13:50,740 that place is possessed by wind 291 00:13:50,740 --> 00:13:53,070 that comes from East Africa. 292 00:13:53,070 --> 00:13:55,590 I was curious to know why East Africa 293 00:13:55,590 --> 00:14:00,590 which led me into learning about the history of slave trade, 294 00:14:01,710 --> 00:14:05,500 centuries of a slave trade, basically, 13 centuries, 295 00:14:05,500 --> 00:14:07,563 and it only ended in 1927, 296 00:14:09,130 --> 00:14:13,780 but like the majority of the people of African descent 297 00:14:16,130 --> 00:14:18,600 drifted towards south of Iran 298 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,800 because they could mix with the people down there 299 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,890 due to darker skin colour 300 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:30,610 but still they're subject to severe racism in the region, 301 00:14:30,610 --> 00:14:35,610 and the only time that the dynamic changes, 302 00:14:37,130 --> 00:14:38,740 the power dynamic changes 303 00:14:38,740 --> 00:14:41,373 is when people who are possess need to have, 304 00:14:42,610 --> 00:14:45,420 need to see shamans of African descent 305 00:14:45,420 --> 00:14:49,550 to negotiate peace with the possessing wind in their bodies 306 00:14:49,550 --> 00:14:51,170 so that, to me, 307 00:14:51,170 --> 00:14:54,070 was something that really kind of started this project. 308 00:14:54,070 --> 00:14:56,760 I realised that this needs to be a separate project 309 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:58,520 from what I was doing before, 310 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,770 but it is still, I uses the same visual language, 311 00:15:01,770 --> 00:15:03,760 in some ways, documentary language 312 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,670 but as you know, I'm very much interested in portraiture. 313 00:15:07,670 --> 00:15:09,940 A lot of my works includes, 314 00:15:09,940 --> 00:15:13,280 like one aspect of it is always portraits 315 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:18,280 and then drawing the lines between identities, 316 00:15:19,170 --> 00:15:24,170 history, and also how to image invisible entities 317 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:28,030 like history and wind and the spirit possession 318 00:15:28,030 --> 00:15:31,910 and in my case, my own experience of the real magic 319 00:15:31,910 --> 00:15:33,640 which was through the landscape. 320 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,440 So all these entities 321 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:40,440 were kind of like related to very similar themes 322 00:15:40,900 --> 00:15:42,740 that my practise is engaged with, 323 00:15:42,740 --> 00:15:45,030 and I wanted to bring them into the work. 324 00:15:45,030 --> 00:15:48,783 Are you sharing my slideshow here now? Okay. 325 00:15:50,900 --> 00:15:52,560 Thanks. 326 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:54,263 There's, okay. 327 00:15:55,500 --> 00:15:58,340 There's a video of the book, 328 00:15:58,340 --> 00:16:00,530 shared by MACK Publishing on YouTube, 329 00:16:00,530 --> 00:16:03,240 which you can find it there, 330 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:07,980 and I'm showing bits and pieces of it here 331 00:16:07,980 --> 00:16:11,100 like making the book was a very long process 332 00:16:11,100 --> 00:16:14,020 because I made these pictures of a five years 333 00:16:14,020 --> 00:16:18,290 of travelling back to the islands over and over again, 334 00:16:18,290 --> 00:16:20,650 and then when MACK approached me 335 00:16:20,650 --> 00:16:23,033 with the idea of publishing it as a book, 336 00:16:24,497 --> 00:16:27,580 like thinking where to start and where to end 337 00:16:27,580 --> 00:16:29,490 and how to go about making the book 338 00:16:29,490 --> 00:16:34,083 was something that took a long time to process. 339 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,840 So like at some point, I realised that the book 340 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,630 needs to go into smaller chapters, 341 00:16:44,630 --> 00:16:49,450 that each chapter deals with one aspect of the story 342 00:16:49,450 --> 00:16:53,190 because it's a very complex multilayer history, 343 00:16:53,190 --> 00:16:57,010 and for me, the idea of looking 344 00:16:57,010 --> 00:16:59,080 at the history of ethnography 345 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:00,660 and ethnographic photography 346 00:17:00,660 --> 00:17:02,400 and how it addresses these issues 347 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:04,290 and how I want it to challenge that 348 00:17:04,290 --> 00:17:06,540 by refusing to have a linear 349 00:17:06,540 --> 00:17:09,040 or definitive kind of narrative 350 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:13,010 that is rationalising what's going on there and so on 351 00:17:13,010 --> 00:17:15,530 so I refuse to have a linear narrative in there. 352 00:17:15,530 --> 00:17:18,290 The book starts with the images on the cover 353 00:17:18,290 --> 00:17:20,040 and it's like going on a loop 354 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,100 and ends with the other image at the back 355 00:17:23,100 --> 00:17:25,870 because those images don't exist inside the book 356 00:17:25,870 --> 00:17:26,930 and there's no gap. 357 00:17:26,930 --> 00:17:30,070 You open the book and you see the first image 358 00:17:30,070 --> 00:17:32,070 and there's like the gate fold 359 00:17:32,070 --> 00:17:34,020 that the text inside of it, 360 00:17:34,020 --> 00:17:38,600 I ask the Australian writer 361 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,440 and anthropologist, Michael Taussig 362 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,500 to write a text for the book which is, 363 00:17:44,500 --> 00:17:47,130 his writing really inspired me for this project. 364 00:17:47,130 --> 00:17:49,600 He approaches ethnography 365 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:51,760 the way that contemporary photography 366 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:53,130 approaches documentary 367 00:17:53,130 --> 00:17:55,570 like what's true and what's not, 368 00:17:55,570 --> 00:17:57,393 what's real and what is fiction. 369 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,700 You see the beginning and end 370 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,960 is the same mountain, one from, 371 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,610 one's at the back and the other is from the front 372 00:18:07,610 --> 00:18:09,163 in black and white and colour, 373 00:18:10,250 --> 00:18:13,890 and photographing the mountains for me, 374 00:18:13,890 --> 00:18:15,740 was a way of photographing the wind 375 00:18:15,740 --> 00:18:18,610 because the mountains look like the statues, 376 00:18:18,610 --> 00:18:22,020 and the locals believe that the statues, 377 00:18:22,020 --> 00:18:24,513 the mountains are carved over millennia, 378 00:18:26,027 --> 00:18:27,730 by the wind. 379 00:18:27,730 --> 00:18:29,680 This is the first moment that I arrived, 380 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,280 like the first time I arrived in the islands, 381 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:34,470 and one of the locals painted my face 382 00:18:34,470 --> 00:18:39,070 with the glowing red sand of the island 383 00:18:39,070 --> 00:18:42,070 and behind me is the Persian Gulf 384 00:18:42,070 --> 00:18:44,560 and the blue waters that, 385 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,130 I remember, it was right after watching 386 00:18:47,130 --> 00:18:50,260 a group of dolphins in the silence of the morning, 387 00:18:50,260 --> 00:18:51,470 jumping out of the water, 388 00:18:51,470 --> 00:18:53,110 I was blown away, 389 00:18:53,110 --> 00:18:57,690 and this is the moment that I kind of was, 390 00:18:57,690 --> 00:19:01,620 maybe possessed by the spirit of the island. 391 00:19:01,620 --> 00:19:03,270 That's what the locals always tell me 392 00:19:03,270 --> 00:19:06,040 that you are possessed, that's why you keep returning. 393 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,810 But there were two different elements to the place 394 00:19:09,810 --> 00:19:10,780 that drew me, 395 00:19:10,780 --> 00:19:14,590 basically, one was this absolutely, surreal, 396 00:19:14,590 --> 00:19:17,080 magical look of the landscape 397 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:18,660 which to me was like walking 398 00:19:18,660 --> 00:19:21,470 through a Pixar animation, basically, 399 00:19:21,470 --> 00:19:24,660 and then it was also then the connection 400 00:19:24,660 --> 00:19:27,470 between people and the landscape, 401 00:19:27,470 --> 00:19:30,417 how the landscape inspired the costumes 402 00:19:30,417 --> 00:19:32,180 and the clothing. 403 00:19:32,180 --> 00:19:35,010 And then the narrative that I spoke to you about 404 00:19:35,010 --> 00:19:38,933 about the possessing wind was like when I, 405 00:19:40,110 --> 00:19:42,070 like in different islands that I travelled, 406 00:19:42,070 --> 00:19:43,940 people wear different masks, 407 00:19:43,940 --> 00:19:48,680 and I was told that the wind possesses women, mostly, 408 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:50,500 and it harms women more than men, 409 00:19:50,500 --> 00:19:53,150 although there are lots of men who are possessed too, 410 00:19:54,220 --> 00:19:57,400 and some of the locals told me that the masks they wear 411 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:58,990 is like, as you can see, 412 00:19:58,990 --> 00:20:01,440 it looks like a thick moustache and eyebrow 413 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:02,570 which makes women, 414 00:20:02,570 --> 00:20:06,340 it's to protect them from the possessing wind in some ways, 415 00:20:06,340 --> 00:20:10,423 which to me was also a very fascinating aspect of the story. 416 00:20:11,380 --> 00:20:14,330 I went to a lot of the rituals 417 00:20:14,330 --> 00:20:16,410 and ceremonies of a spirit possession 418 00:20:16,410 --> 00:20:19,800 to learn more and more about how it operates. 419 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:24,700 This is a family who basically performed, 420 00:20:24,700 --> 00:20:27,100 I made a film also in there, 421 00:20:27,100 --> 00:20:29,200 it's a two-channel video installation 422 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,880 in collaboration with this family 423 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,900 which I took the camera to them and I told them that, 424 00:20:36,900 --> 00:20:39,620 like treat the camera as a possessed patient 425 00:20:39,620 --> 00:20:41,650 and we put a fabric on the camera, 426 00:20:41,650 --> 00:20:46,650 and the performance was basically dismantled intersections 427 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,563 performed for the camera, basically there. 428 00:20:52,710 --> 00:20:55,300 Some of the, these are some of the researchers that I did 429 00:20:55,300 --> 00:20:56,660 which I have to skip, 430 00:20:56,660 --> 00:20:59,150 but this is Michael Taussig's writing 431 00:20:59,150 --> 00:21:00,880 that really inspired me, 432 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,370 especially "I Swear I Saw This" book, 433 00:21:03,370 --> 00:21:07,180 which is his field note drawings that he did 434 00:21:08,620 --> 00:21:10,200 in Southern America, 435 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,850 and he wrote this book about how he tried to 436 00:21:14,850 --> 00:21:16,970 instead of taking pictures, 437 00:21:16,970 --> 00:21:19,970 he used drawings to capture the magic of the place, 438 00:21:19,970 --> 00:21:23,770 things that he felt he can't even express 439 00:21:23,770 --> 00:21:25,740 through words or images, 440 00:21:25,740 --> 00:21:27,450 and the magic of the drawing, 441 00:21:27,450 --> 00:21:31,290 how you can actually encompass that experience and so on. 442 00:21:31,290 --> 00:21:33,970 That's why I found it so relevant 443 00:21:35,580 --> 00:21:36,843 to the project. 444 00:21:37,990 --> 00:21:39,860 This is my residency in London. 445 00:21:39,860 --> 00:21:44,110 This is (chuckles) the life that I was telling you about 446 00:21:44,110 --> 00:21:45,640 for months and months. 447 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,220 I had all these prints laid on the floors, 448 00:21:49,220 --> 00:21:51,520 and I was running out of wall spaces, 449 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,770 but I needed to spend that time with it 450 00:21:54,770 --> 00:21:57,510 to find these kind of dialogues between the images, 451 00:21:57,510 --> 00:22:00,130 but the most difficult part was where to start, 452 00:22:00,130 --> 00:22:05,130 and that's why I decided to put them in small groupings, 453 00:22:05,540 --> 00:22:08,810 really simple groupings of what the material I have, 454 00:22:08,810 --> 00:22:10,540 what am I dealing with, animals, 455 00:22:10,540 --> 00:22:14,720 black and white landscape, figure, drawing, and so on, 456 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:19,530 and from there, finding these conversations 457 00:22:19,530 --> 00:22:20,690 between the images 458 00:22:20,690 --> 00:22:24,370 that could reflect what I was trying to narrate 459 00:22:24,370 --> 00:22:26,420 about the beauty of the place 460 00:22:26,420 --> 00:22:29,407 and the relationship between the identities of the people 461 00:22:29,407 --> 00:22:30,930 and the landscape, 462 00:22:30,930 --> 00:22:33,740 and as you can see, photographically, 463 00:22:33,740 --> 00:22:37,150 I'm trying to really bring that into the work 464 00:22:37,150 --> 00:22:39,123 through these pairings. 465 00:22:47,610 --> 00:22:50,850 But again, by choosing black and white 466 00:22:50,850 --> 00:22:52,960 as a separate section 467 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:54,730 was a decision that I make 468 00:22:54,730 --> 00:22:57,490 to kind of move between these spaces 469 00:22:57,490 --> 00:23:01,050 that is between the oral history 470 00:23:01,050 --> 00:23:04,620 of this possessing spirit in the island 471 00:23:04,620 --> 00:23:07,550 that is represented through the black and white sections 472 00:23:07,550 --> 00:23:10,020 where these are images of the locations 473 00:23:10,020 --> 00:23:12,460 where the possessing wind exists, 474 00:23:12,460 --> 00:23:14,570 and then moving throughout the book, 475 00:23:14,570 --> 00:23:17,570 you constantly move from the reality 476 00:23:17,570 --> 00:23:20,960 that is reflected through the colour images 477 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:25,120 and back into the black and white spaces. 478 00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:28,220 So the process was, first, finding these pairings 479 00:23:29,730 --> 00:23:30,610 and then from there, 480 00:23:30,610 --> 00:23:34,160 I was sending them to Michael Mac and the designer, 481 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:35,440 and we were having meetings 482 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,630 on how to go about constructing the book, 483 00:23:38,630 --> 00:23:40,310 and then after finding the pairings, 484 00:23:40,310 --> 00:23:44,570 we started laying it out again into the PDF 485 00:23:44,570 --> 00:23:46,550 and then work on the design 486 00:23:46,550 --> 00:23:48,290 and then again, print them out, 487 00:23:48,290 --> 00:23:53,110 lay them on the floor to find the right flow for the book. 488 00:23:53,110 --> 00:23:55,360 So if you, you will see in the book 489 00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:57,750 that there are these different sections, 490 00:23:57,750 --> 00:23:59,710 again, from colour to black and white, 491 00:23:59,710 --> 00:24:01,470 but then the black and white sections 492 00:24:01,470 --> 00:24:03,880 include also, as you saw in the film, 493 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,550 there's French fold because I asked the locals 494 00:24:06,550 --> 00:24:08,950 to make drawings of the possessing wind 495 00:24:08,950 --> 00:24:12,210 because the majority believe that they've seen it before. 496 00:24:12,210 --> 00:24:15,350 So how to bring that into the book 497 00:24:15,350 --> 00:24:18,480 was to place them inside the black and white landscape 498 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,943 and also the text, both in Farsi and English, 499 00:24:22,991 --> 00:24:25,050 is taken from the interviews I did 500 00:24:25,050 --> 00:24:26,730 with the possessed people 501 00:24:26,730 --> 00:24:28,870 that they talk about the physical experience 502 00:24:28,870 --> 00:24:30,063 of being possessed. 503 00:24:32,070 --> 00:24:34,130 As you may know, I'm very much inspired 504 00:24:34,130 --> 00:24:36,250 by cinema and slow cinema. 505 00:24:36,250 --> 00:24:37,220 Often in my work, 506 00:24:37,220 --> 00:24:40,770 I try to bring that element into the work as well 507 00:24:40,770 --> 00:24:44,220 through the montage and staging and so on. 508 00:24:44,220 --> 00:24:47,960 And this is the dance that a possessed person do 509 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,020 when they being in the ritual 510 00:24:50,020 --> 00:24:51,310 and the drums are playing, 511 00:24:51,310 --> 00:24:53,630 so we did perform that in the landscape, 512 00:24:53,630 --> 00:24:55,960 and by the repetition, there's a section in the book, 513 00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:00,960 you see the dance that is interrupted with these cuts, 514 00:25:01,870 --> 00:25:04,090 because the image is wrapped around the pages, 515 00:25:04,090 --> 00:25:06,930 you move from one page to another. 516 00:25:06,930 --> 00:25:10,930 These two are, again, the cover images of the book, 517 00:25:10,930 --> 00:25:12,350 the front and the back, 518 00:25:12,350 --> 00:25:14,490 which what we wanted to do 519 00:25:14,490 --> 00:25:17,343 was to capture that magic and the dream, 520 00:25:18,580 --> 00:25:21,480 something that encourages people to pick up the book, 521 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:22,640 something ambiguous 522 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,923 but also reflective of the story. 523 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:29,370 Anyway, I think I should end it here 524 00:25:29,370 --> 00:25:32,910 and let you respond or ask questions. 525 00:25:32,910 --> 00:25:35,360 - Yeah, thank you so much, Hoda. 526 00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:39,180 I mean, there's so much to talk about there, 527 00:25:39,180 --> 00:25:43,560 and something that really strikes me 528 00:25:45,260 --> 00:25:48,330 is that, it's so generous of you 529 00:25:48,330 --> 00:25:49,950 to share your process with us, 530 00:25:49,950 --> 00:25:54,430 because when you've got such a beautifully composed book 531 00:25:54,430 --> 00:25:55,600 that feels right 532 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,100 and every part of it looks together conceptually 533 00:25:59,100 --> 00:26:00,594 and visually and aesthetically 534 00:26:00,594 --> 00:26:05,594 and in terms of the stories that you're exploring, 535 00:26:06,370 --> 00:26:10,110 it looks like such a complete finished piece, 536 00:26:10,110 --> 00:26:15,110 and it's actually quite hard to imagine it 537 00:26:15,410 --> 00:26:17,320 not being that whole, 538 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,263 and to see how you worked through, 539 00:26:21,170 --> 00:26:22,400 you know, just that glimpse 540 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,730 of your very residency in London, 541 00:26:26,730 --> 00:26:31,033 is just so, I think it should be so inspiring 542 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:34,390 for photographers out there 543 00:26:34,390 --> 00:26:39,390 to know that there's that working through that process 544 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,520 in the making of a book like that 545 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:48,240 is, and you end up with this beautiful presentation 546 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:52,710 that's this beautiful object at the end 547 00:26:53,550 --> 00:26:58,480 as well as a contained story. 548 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,820 So, just tell, just expand a little bit on that, 549 00:27:02,820 --> 00:27:05,360 I suppose the dynamics of a book 550 00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:09,040 and curating those in that 551 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,550 like you talked about the pairings, 552 00:27:11,550 --> 00:27:15,180 but also the, yeah, that structure of a book 553 00:27:15,180 --> 00:27:17,740 and how you grappled with, 554 00:27:17,740 --> 00:27:20,220 particularly the place of portraiture within the book 555 00:27:20,220 --> 00:27:23,283 is being inseparable from the other elements. 556 00:27:25,510 --> 00:27:28,513 - For sure. I think, 557 00:27:29,630 --> 00:27:31,760 thank you, firstly, for saying that 558 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:33,733 because making a book has like, 559 00:27:34,630 --> 00:27:36,810 was a very emotional process for me. 560 00:27:36,810 --> 00:27:39,200 There's so many moments of doubt 561 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:43,930 that luckily I had friends who I could actually, 562 00:27:43,930 --> 00:27:47,050 friends that I trust their vision and knowledge of the area 563 00:27:47,050 --> 00:27:50,600 that I could actually share it with 564 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,010 and send it back and forth, 565 00:27:52,010 --> 00:27:55,790 and it's a very different medium. 566 00:27:55,790 --> 00:27:57,170 Working with book, to me, 567 00:27:57,170 --> 00:28:00,430 it's a lot closer to filmmaking and montage 568 00:28:00,430 --> 00:28:04,620 than working on an exhibition, 569 00:28:04,620 --> 00:28:08,073 which is something that I'm more accustomed to 570 00:28:08,073 --> 00:28:09,583 than making a book, 571 00:28:10,530 --> 00:28:13,460 and translating a project into a book 572 00:28:13,460 --> 00:28:16,540 requires a very different way of thinking 573 00:28:16,540 --> 00:28:21,540 about a series of images and how to make it flow 574 00:28:22,100 --> 00:28:23,400 and interesting enough 575 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:28,380 and so it was a very long process 576 00:28:28,380 --> 00:28:33,000 but then also the role of the portraiture in the project 577 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:37,410 is something that I was intentionally playing with. 578 00:28:37,410 --> 00:28:40,353 The beginning and end section are, 579 00:28:41,270 --> 00:28:45,710 there are two different chapters of colour, colour images, 580 00:28:45,710 --> 00:28:49,560 one is the beginning and one is towards the end that, 581 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:54,010 like the faces are refusing to look into the camera 582 00:28:54,010 --> 00:28:57,930 or just like the portraiture is basically fit portraits 583 00:28:57,930 --> 00:28:59,010 without faces. 584 00:28:59,010 --> 00:29:02,820 It's like playing with this idea of who's looking at who, 585 00:29:02,820 --> 00:29:07,820 and the gaze of the subject that is refusing to look 586 00:29:09,304 --> 00:29:14,304 or sometimes also trying to look at the body 587 00:29:14,870 --> 00:29:18,160 as part of a bigger landscape, 588 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,140 that body and the landscape merged together. 589 00:29:21,140 --> 00:29:23,610 So in the first two colour sections, 590 00:29:23,610 --> 00:29:25,360 you don't see any faces, 591 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,270 but then, and then it's like playing 592 00:29:27,270 --> 00:29:29,100 between those two chapters 593 00:29:29,100 --> 00:29:31,480 and the black and white sections that, again, 594 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,030 the face is absent there but present, the body is present, 595 00:29:35,030 --> 00:29:37,300 but then it's only in the middle of the book 596 00:29:37,300 --> 00:29:40,720 that you see all these faces with and without the mask, 597 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:42,170 staring at the audience 598 00:29:42,170 --> 00:29:44,833 and looking into the camera directly, 599 00:29:45,842 --> 00:29:48,540 which is the traditional idea of a portraiture. 600 00:29:48,540 --> 00:29:51,510 So for me, it was a lot present 601 00:29:51,510 --> 00:29:52,890 in the work and the process 602 00:29:52,890 --> 00:29:55,760 thinking about what is a portraiture 603 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,870 like how do we approach the idea of the face 604 00:29:58,870 --> 00:30:01,090 in our portrait and so on 605 00:30:01,090 --> 00:30:04,860 so I don't know if that answered your question, 606 00:30:04,860 --> 00:30:06,450 did I? 607 00:30:06,450 --> 00:30:08,607 - Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, 608 00:30:08,607 --> 00:30:13,074 and I think Gill has a question from our audience. 609 00:30:13,074 --> 00:30:14,670 - Oh, thanks, Penny. 610 00:30:14,670 --> 00:30:16,150 Our friend Nita was just wondering, 611 00:30:16,150 --> 00:30:19,680 Hoda, how you negotiate that immovable object 612 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:21,530 that is the break between pages 613 00:30:21,530 --> 00:30:24,380 and how you approached that aspect 614 00:30:24,380 --> 00:30:25,980 when it comes to a visual book 615 00:30:25,980 --> 00:30:28,480 having to have that fold right down the middle 616 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,780 and there's just no way you can get around it? 617 00:30:31,940 --> 00:30:33,113 - Um, 618 00:30:33,980 --> 00:30:37,970 you mean like how I negotiated that with the publisher? 619 00:30:37,970 --> 00:30:39,220 - Oh no, sorry, just where, 620 00:30:39,220 --> 00:30:41,240 how you negotiate where the cut falls 621 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,820 when you are placing in images together 622 00:30:43,820 --> 00:30:46,550 and, you know that kind of notion of having it 623 00:30:46,550 --> 00:30:49,680 to have like a fold appear across images, et cetera? 624 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:50,810 - Ah, yes, yes. 625 00:30:50,810 --> 00:30:51,950 That's something that, again, 626 00:30:51,950 --> 00:30:53,540 like it was something in the process 627 00:30:53,540 --> 00:30:55,290 with the designer and Michael Mack 628 00:30:55,290 --> 00:30:56,450 that we discussed a lot 629 00:30:56,450 --> 00:30:58,520 that allowing the photo book format 630 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,320 to also be present at medium, 631 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:02,750 be present in the process 632 00:31:02,750 --> 00:31:05,080 so like putting the image in there 633 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,720 and see what is the limit of where it is cuts 634 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,540 and instead of we deciding, 635 00:31:10,540 --> 00:31:13,840 allowing the page and the book format to decide that for us 636 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:15,400 and then move the next one, 637 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,530 but then also thinking about what image goes next 638 00:31:19,530 --> 00:31:22,660 that connects them all together that it moves across 639 00:31:22,660 --> 00:31:26,100 was something that we spend a lot of time, 640 00:31:26,100 --> 00:31:29,310 working out what works best in terms of the flow, 641 00:31:29,310 --> 00:31:31,630 but in terms of the cuts and the folds, 642 00:31:31,630 --> 00:31:34,930 it was, yeah, like I'm very much interested 643 00:31:34,930 --> 00:31:37,210 in the medium itself, 644 00:31:37,210 --> 00:31:41,580 whether it's photography or video or the photo book. 645 00:31:41,580 --> 00:31:45,100 I like to see there's more of collaboration with the medium, 646 00:31:45,100 --> 00:31:46,800 rather than trying to control it 647 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,030 but like allowing the chance to come into it, 648 00:31:50,030 --> 00:31:53,530 and that was one of those moments that, 649 00:31:53,530 --> 00:31:57,250 like the chance was giving us so many interesting things. 650 00:31:57,250 --> 00:31:59,240 We were throwing the images in the format 651 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,480 and it was coming up with something quite interesting. 652 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:03,773 I mean, in the layout. 653 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,093 - Thank you, Nita, that's a great question. 654 00:32:09,770 --> 00:32:12,080 It's interesting Hoda like the, 655 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:16,570 I'm absolutely fascinated by the, 656 00:32:16,570 --> 00:32:17,680 there's an element to the, 657 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,390 there's portraiture but there's also such a depth 658 00:32:20,390 --> 00:32:22,920 to the relationship that you developed 659 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:27,740 between yourself and the place and these people, 660 00:32:27,740 --> 00:32:31,270 to the point where they were sharing their visions 661 00:32:31,270 --> 00:32:35,000 of this force with you in those drawings, 662 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,520 so can you tell us a little bit more 663 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,770 about developing that trust and that immersion 664 00:32:41,770 --> 00:32:45,140 in that community through this project? 665 00:32:45,140 --> 00:32:45,973 - Absolutely, 666 00:32:45,973 --> 00:32:47,780 that's something that is really important 667 00:32:47,780 --> 00:32:50,830 to the process for me like I can't, 668 00:32:50,830 --> 00:32:54,740 I realised early on that I'm the worst photographer 669 00:32:54,740 --> 00:32:59,740 when it comes to short, limited commissioned projects. 670 00:33:00,410 --> 00:33:03,130 If I'm giving an editorial task, 671 00:33:03,130 --> 00:33:05,270 I really can't do it, 672 00:33:05,270 --> 00:33:07,600 I've proven that to you, to other people 673 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,233 who thought I would be able to, 674 00:33:10,710 --> 00:33:12,130 because I need time 675 00:33:12,130 --> 00:33:15,630 and time is a very important element for me 676 00:33:15,630 --> 00:33:20,157 and it's only with time that comes trust and knowledge, 677 00:33:22,450 --> 00:33:25,903 especially if I'm working with sensitive topics as such, 678 00:33:27,700 --> 00:33:32,580 and for me, the book is based on incomplete knowledge, 679 00:33:32,580 --> 00:33:34,670 you know, like when you think about history, 680 00:33:34,670 --> 00:33:36,700 history is never completed 681 00:33:36,700 --> 00:33:38,220 and when you work with the locals, 682 00:33:38,220 --> 00:33:40,260 it's all based on oral histories 683 00:33:40,260 --> 00:33:42,650 and also what you read has a history, 684 00:33:42,650 --> 00:33:47,650 a lot of the locals tells you that that's not true, 685 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,910 so how could you place yourself within that context 686 00:33:50,910 --> 00:33:53,620 as someone that holds the truth of the story 687 00:33:53,620 --> 00:33:54,830 or the narrative? 688 00:33:54,830 --> 00:33:59,320 So it was something that I like only for me 689 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:00,880 with different projects as well, 690 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:02,750 it can be possible and happen 691 00:34:02,750 --> 00:34:07,750 if the people are like the subjects 692 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:09,850 or I don't like to use the word subject, 693 00:34:09,850 --> 00:34:12,260 it's the collaborators are actively involved 694 00:34:12,260 --> 00:34:14,080 in the process of making it 695 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:15,500 so it was sitting in cars, 696 00:34:15,500 --> 00:34:18,660 moving with them, and them taking me to places 697 00:34:18,660 --> 00:34:22,803 to take pictures of the stories they were telling me about, 698 00:34:23,692 --> 00:34:25,490 and also with the shamans, 699 00:34:25,490 --> 00:34:27,670 it was just returning so many times 700 00:34:27,670 --> 00:34:30,130 because you're not allowed to film actually, 701 00:34:30,130 --> 00:34:32,360 or take pictures of the actual ceremony, 702 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,120 it's sacred to them, 703 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,700 and for us, it was more about, 704 00:34:36,700 --> 00:34:38,193 like often with all my other works, 705 00:34:38,193 --> 00:34:41,840 it's like staging and performing real stories 706 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,290 but with the real people in real places 707 00:34:44,290 --> 00:34:48,410 but it's just reenacting it for the camera in some ways. 708 00:34:48,410 --> 00:34:52,300 So there's more truth in that for me 709 00:34:52,300 --> 00:34:57,043 than me clicking and run and taking pictures of things 710 00:34:58,090 --> 00:35:00,020 when the camera is hidden. 711 00:35:00,020 --> 00:35:01,970 In fact, for me, 712 00:35:01,970 --> 00:35:03,840 it's like the photographer and the camera 713 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:05,787 has to be so present in the work 714 00:35:05,787 --> 00:35:09,140 and I try to make it present in the images as well, 715 00:35:09,140 --> 00:35:12,780 to bring out the constructed nature of all these realities 716 00:35:12,780 --> 00:35:15,293 that we reflect in our photographs in a way. 717 00:35:17,810 --> 00:35:20,810 - Yeah, that's so, that factor of time 718 00:35:23,420 --> 00:35:25,760 and just building, building up that knowledge 719 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:27,984 and the, but then, I love that concept 720 00:35:27,984 --> 00:35:31,530 of knowing what you can't learn 721 00:35:31,530 --> 00:35:33,150 and knowing what you don't know 722 00:35:33,150 --> 00:35:36,040 and the different layers of the narratives. 723 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,850 Does that relate to why you were determined 724 00:35:38,850 --> 00:35:43,850 not to present a sort of linear narrative within the story 725 00:35:44,110 --> 00:35:47,350 because you presumably could have done that 726 00:35:47,350 --> 00:35:48,830 if you chosen to? 727 00:35:48,830 --> 00:35:53,080 - Yeah, it just like the traditional style 728 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,970 of documentary making and storytelling, 729 00:35:55,970 --> 00:35:58,510 not just, it's the conventional structure 730 00:35:58,510 --> 00:36:01,920 that you start with, there's a beginning, 731 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,480 there's a story, there's an end and a conclusion. 732 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,970 But, you know, like the "Speak the Wind" is more about, 733 00:36:09,970 --> 00:36:12,140 like that's what the title is for, 734 00:36:12,140 --> 00:36:14,780 to reflect the impossibility of the story. 735 00:36:14,780 --> 00:36:19,780 It's more like, the book is about what's not there, 736 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:20,873 to be honest, 737 00:36:20,873 --> 00:36:23,380 like basically everything that the story is about 738 00:36:23,380 --> 00:36:25,370 is not present in the book, 739 00:36:25,370 --> 00:36:30,370 so it's more about the effort of the author 740 00:36:31,730 --> 00:36:34,390 to tell an impossible story, basically. 741 00:36:34,390 --> 00:36:38,590 So for that I couldn't even like, 742 00:36:38,590 --> 00:36:40,888 because it's very much multidirectional, 743 00:36:40,888 --> 00:36:44,050 it's like being dragged from one place to another, 744 00:36:44,050 --> 00:36:45,930 one person tells you this story 745 00:36:45,930 --> 00:36:47,600 and another one contradicts it, 746 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,910 so there's no linear order in that 747 00:36:49,910 --> 00:36:53,730 and it's just basically reflecting the experience. 748 00:36:53,730 --> 00:36:56,730 I want people to experience something, 749 00:36:56,730 --> 00:37:01,250 something that is basically treating magic as the real 750 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:07,660 and trying to move beyond the exoticness of the place 751 00:37:07,660 --> 00:37:09,520 but then bring into attention 752 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,357 something about our human, humanity 753 00:37:13,357 --> 00:37:16,790 and also our relationship to the land, 754 00:37:16,790 --> 00:37:19,810 how our identities are shaped by the places 755 00:37:19,810 --> 00:37:22,983 that we live in or born in. 756 00:37:25,004 --> 00:37:27,920 - And so how do you translate 757 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,870 the impossibility to an exhibition? 758 00:37:30,870 --> 00:37:33,210 Hoda, just tell us a little bit about 759 00:37:33,210 --> 00:37:35,680 how that's going for your exhibition 760 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,530 at Monash Gallery of Art 761 00:37:38,490 --> 00:37:42,070 and I suppose what you've discovered 762 00:37:42,070 --> 00:37:45,880 about the exhibition form as opposed to the book form 763 00:37:46,922 --> 00:37:49,423 in this sort of translation exercise? 764 00:37:50,500 --> 00:37:53,700 - Yeah, it's a very challenging process 765 00:37:53,700 --> 00:37:55,880 because like when I was doing the book, 766 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,930 I was trying to think what the book can do 767 00:37:58,930 --> 00:38:00,950 that an exhibition cannot do, 768 00:38:00,950 --> 00:38:05,360 so how to use that as a way of making the work, 769 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:10,360 and now trying to think what the exhibition can do 770 00:38:10,690 --> 00:38:12,060 that the book couldn't do. 771 00:38:12,060 --> 00:38:13,980 So there's this film element 772 00:38:13,980 --> 00:38:16,430 that is just about to be completed 773 00:38:16,430 --> 00:38:19,210 with the sound design and colour grading 774 00:38:19,210 --> 00:38:22,320 that I spend almost the year editing it, 775 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,630 and the film will be shown for the first time here, 776 00:38:26,630 --> 00:38:27,463 opens here 777 00:38:27,463 --> 00:38:29,630 and then soon after that, in Italy 778 00:38:30,622 --> 00:38:33,820 and then hopefully travel around the world, 779 00:38:33,820 --> 00:38:36,400 but then also to kind of move here 780 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,850 because once you spend so much time making that book, 781 00:38:39,850 --> 00:38:41,520 the structure and format of the book 782 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:42,980 is so present in your mind, 783 00:38:42,980 --> 00:38:44,640 and then when you want to translate it 784 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:46,100 into an exhibition format, 785 00:38:46,100 --> 00:38:49,120 it's just almost impossible to get out of it, 786 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:53,470 but then I ended up making it my cut of the MGA space 787 00:38:53,470 --> 00:38:56,680 and then placing all the images around it and play. 788 00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,500 I'm excited about what's about to come. 789 00:38:59,500 --> 00:39:01,690 I think finally I arrived at a point 790 00:39:01,690 --> 00:39:05,520 that I'm really happy with the choices we made, 791 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:09,440 and I can't wait to share it with everybody. 792 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,077 It's been challenging but we're there now. 793 00:39:12,077 --> 00:39:13,810 - (chuckles) That's so good to hear. 794 00:39:13,810 --> 00:39:15,570 Did you find new things 795 00:39:15,570 --> 00:39:17,180 in the images that you've taken 796 00:39:17,180 --> 00:39:19,310 as a result of that process? 797 00:39:19,310 --> 00:39:21,520 - It's a, yeah, it's a very different way 798 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,020 of treating the images 799 00:39:24,020 --> 00:39:28,210 like instead of which goes beyond the format 800 00:39:28,210 --> 00:39:29,620 that we chose for the book 801 00:39:29,620 --> 00:39:31,090 and then looking at them 802 00:39:31,090 --> 00:39:33,840 in a very different mode of presentation, 803 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:38,260 it also, because the possibilities are endless with, 804 00:39:38,260 --> 00:39:40,410 when you have hundreds of images, 805 00:39:40,410 --> 00:39:43,540 you can choose so many different ways of presenting it 806 00:39:43,540 --> 00:39:46,550 so it's exciting to kind of look at it 807 00:39:46,550 --> 00:39:48,373 and approach it differently again. 808 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,300 - And did you introduce a new selection? 809 00:39:53,300 --> 00:39:55,460 Did you go right back to the beginning 810 00:39:55,460 --> 00:39:57,040 in making the exhibition 811 00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,810 or did you sort of treat the material 812 00:39:59,810 --> 00:40:03,783 as being the layer that you extracted for the book? 813 00:40:04,850 --> 00:40:09,390 - No. I decided to stick with what went into the book 814 00:40:09,390 --> 00:40:13,350 rather than bringing images that we left out, 815 00:40:13,350 --> 00:40:16,930 because I think that once the selection is made, 816 00:40:16,930 --> 00:40:20,250 that's the work and the rest is outtakes 817 00:40:20,250 --> 00:40:23,740 that hopefully, one day, in a larger exhibition, 818 00:40:23,740 --> 00:40:26,570 you can present it as other material 819 00:40:26,570 --> 00:40:28,190 that didn't make it to the series, 820 00:40:28,190 --> 00:40:31,093 but I'm working with what's in there, yeah. 821 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,676 It's only the film that is a new element. 822 00:40:35,676 --> 00:40:39,050 (Penny chuckles) 823 00:40:39,050 --> 00:40:40,400 - Oh, that's so, 824 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,930 I can't wait to, I can't wait to see it, Hoda. 825 00:40:42,930 --> 00:40:44,433 It'll be- - Thank you. 826 00:40:44,433 --> 00:40:45,266 (Penny laughs) 827 00:40:45,266 --> 00:40:47,340 (speaks faintly) make it to Melbourne for it. 828 00:40:47,340 --> 00:40:48,700 - Yeah, I hope so too, 829 00:40:48,700 --> 00:40:53,700 and all our, anyone coming who's in Melbourne at the moment, 830 00:40:55,060 --> 00:40:57,210 look out for the show 831 00:40:57,210 --> 00:41:00,490 and so, Hoda, we've got a few minutes left 832 00:41:00,490 --> 00:41:02,250 and I'd love to hear, 833 00:41:02,250 --> 00:41:05,540 you know, we at the National Portrait Gallery, 834 00:41:05,540 --> 00:41:07,673 all our finalists are now, 835 00:41:08,510 --> 00:41:12,460 winners of the NPPP become part of the NPG family, 836 00:41:12,460 --> 00:41:13,870 and we're always so excited 837 00:41:13,870 --> 00:41:16,780 to follow (chuckles) travels around the world 838 00:41:16,780 --> 00:41:21,100 and the next chapters for all of our artists 839 00:41:21,100 --> 00:41:26,100 and so I'd love to hear what's next for Hoda Afshar 840 00:41:26,290 --> 00:41:28,837 in 2022 and beyond. 841 00:41:28,837 --> 00:41:30,740 - Oh, (chuckles) oh my God, 842 00:41:30,740 --> 00:41:34,130 but I actually takes on too much at the moment 843 00:41:34,130 --> 00:41:35,870 and there's a lot happening. 844 00:41:35,870 --> 00:41:38,000 I'm excited about it. 845 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:42,927 There are two big projects for 2023 846 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,310 that I'm not allowed to share at this stage, 847 00:41:47,310 --> 00:41:48,180 what they are, 848 00:41:48,180 --> 00:41:53,180 but there are quite exciting for me 849 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:56,763 and soon will be shared. 850 00:41:57,650 --> 00:42:01,267 After showing, opening the exhibition at MGA, 851 00:42:02,583 --> 00:42:07,060 I've got two exhibitions of "Speak the Wind" 852 00:42:07,060 --> 00:42:09,450 in Vienna and Italy, as I mentioned, 853 00:42:09,450 --> 00:42:12,570 and hopefully more opportunities 854 00:42:12,570 --> 00:42:14,920 for it to be shown around, 855 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:19,520 and then I've got a show 856 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:24,040 as part of the Aichi Triennale in Japan 857 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,220 and I think June 858 00:42:26,220 --> 00:42:30,610 and a few others which keeps me quite busy, 859 00:42:30,610 --> 00:42:33,200 but then I have to, in the second half of the year, 860 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,080 I've got to getting to making new work 861 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,280 for those other projects for the following year. 862 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,160 - Oh, that sounds so exciting 863 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,620 and you, I suppose for the last two years, 864 00:42:43,620 --> 00:42:46,760 have you been able to get back to around much, 865 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:48,711 have you, are you looking forward 866 00:42:48,711 --> 00:42:53,711 to continuing your ongoing project of that, 867 00:42:55,890 --> 00:42:58,250 those visits and that photography? 868 00:42:58,250 --> 00:43:01,083 - Absolutely, I haven't been able to go back. 869 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,800 This is the longest I've gone without seeing my family. 870 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:05,937 It's 2 1/2 years now, 871 00:43:05,937 --> 00:43:07,590 and it's because of the pandemic, 872 00:43:07,590 --> 00:43:09,360 the borders were shut, 873 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,240 and I tried when I was in London, 874 00:43:11,240 --> 00:43:13,410 I went even to the airport and from there, 875 00:43:13,410 --> 00:43:17,310 they send me back, they said the borders are closed, 876 00:43:17,310 --> 00:43:19,750 but I'm hoping to go if I can, 877 00:43:19,750 --> 00:43:24,750 during the break in midyear and between June, July, 878 00:43:26,730 --> 00:43:30,610 and I'm really hoping that the borders remain open 879 00:43:30,610 --> 00:43:32,780 till then, but we will see. 880 00:43:32,780 --> 00:43:34,380 And, of course, when I return, 881 00:43:34,380 --> 00:43:36,913 I will continue making pictures there as well. 882 00:43:39,130 --> 00:43:42,610 - Oh, Hoda, it's been such an absolute pleasure 883 00:43:42,610 --> 00:43:43,571 chatting with you. 884 00:43:43,571 --> 00:43:45,430 - [Hoda] Thank you. 885 00:43:45,430 --> 00:43:49,730 - Completely absorbing and wonderful to see some images 886 00:43:49,730 --> 00:43:51,307 and hear you reflect on "Speak the Wind" 887 00:43:51,307 --> 00:43:53,670 and your experience in the last two years. 888 00:43:53,670 --> 00:43:58,200 Thank you so much and handing back to Gill 889 00:43:58,200 --> 00:43:59,820 to finish off the programme. 890 00:43:59,820 --> 00:44:01,190 Thanks again, Hoda. 891 00:44:01,190 --> 00:44:02,300 - Thank you for having me. 892 00:44:02,300 --> 00:44:03,540 I really appreciate it, 893 00:44:03,540 --> 00:44:06,050 and thanks to everyone who joined in. 894 00:44:06,050 --> 00:44:08,548 I can't see it, but thank you. 895 00:44:08,548 --> 00:44:10,030 (Penny chuckles) 896 00:44:10,030 --> 00:44:11,110 - Thank you so much, Penny, 897 00:44:11,110 --> 00:44:11,943 and thank you, Hoda. 898 00:44:11,943 --> 00:44:13,810 We have had over 80 people 899 00:44:13,810 --> 00:44:16,670 who have just been enthralled by looking at your images 900 00:44:16,670 --> 00:44:19,600 and making lots of amazing comments. 901 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:21,770 We've had some comment from Dee 902 00:44:21,770 --> 00:44:24,720 who was saying that she feels that the, 903 00:44:24,720 --> 00:44:27,210 she feels very privileged that you've shared 904 00:44:27,210 --> 00:44:29,560 the spirit and connection of the people 905 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:30,580 that you've been photographing 906 00:44:30,580 --> 00:44:32,700 but also that she feels your spirit and connection 907 00:44:32,700 --> 00:44:34,100 with the place through the images, 908 00:44:34,100 --> 00:44:36,350 so I thought that was a really nice comment 909 00:44:36,350 --> 00:44:37,760 to finish off the programme. 910 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:39,870 So thank you and we will send you 911 00:44:39,870 --> 00:44:42,850 all of everybody's amazing comments at the end, Hoda, 912 00:44:42,850 --> 00:44:43,830 so you can go through them 913 00:44:43,830 --> 00:44:46,680 and feel the love from the audience today. 914 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:48,390 Thank you to everyone who joined us. 915 00:44:48,390 --> 00:44:50,510 Thank you so much for supporting the arts 916 00:44:50,510 --> 00:44:53,080 and for supporting the National Portrait Gallery. 917 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,460 We have a whole raft of virtual highlights to us 918 00:44:55,460 --> 00:44:56,380 that have kicked off again. 919 00:44:56,380 --> 00:44:59,570 If you haven't already joined in on our Tuesdays at 12:30, 920 00:44:59,570 --> 00:45:02,210 please do jump on our website, portrait.gov.au 921 00:45:02,210 --> 00:45:04,200 and check out what's coming up. 922 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,320 We can't wait to continue to share 923 00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:08,980 all forms of different forms of portraiture with you 924 00:45:08,980 --> 00:45:12,280 through these virtual programmes in 2022. 925 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,670 Also coming up, which you'll probably start to see 926 00:45:14,670 --> 00:45:16,390 filtering into our virtual programmes, 927 00:45:16,390 --> 00:45:19,570 is our big exhibition that's coming from MPG, London, 928 00:45:19,570 --> 00:45:20,910 National Portrait Gallery of London, 929 00:45:20,910 --> 00:45:23,370 Shakespeare to Winehouse is opening in March, 930 00:45:23,370 --> 00:45:25,980 so you'll start to see some programming trickling in 931 00:45:25,980 --> 00:45:27,930 around those amazing portraits 932 00:45:27,930 --> 00:45:29,400 from the National Portrait Gallery, London, 933 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,870 some of which have never been seen in Australia 934 00:45:31,870 --> 00:45:33,360 or unlikely to be seen again. 935 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,960 So please do jump on our website, 936 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:37,500 portrait.gov.au once again, 937 00:45:37,500 --> 00:45:39,790 and our social media channels @portraitau 938 00:45:39,790 --> 00:45:41,800 for all the information about that. 939 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:42,750 Thank you, everybody, 940 00:45:42,750 --> 00:45:45,280 and I look forward to seeing you all again, very soon. 941 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,230 Stay safe and stay well. 942 00:45:47,230 --> 00:45:48,243 Thank you, bye-bye.