WEBVTT

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<v ->So without further ado,</v>

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I'd like to introduce our special guest,

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who is a long time friend of the National Portrait Gallery

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here in Canberra, Nikki Toole.

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Hello, thank you so much for joining us, Nikki.

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<v ->How you doin?</v>

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<v ->Thank you, especially for agreeing to programme,</v>

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which is at lunchtime in Canberra Australia,

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but is at the very unfortunate time of 2:30 AM in Paris.

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<v ->I've had a few coffees, I'm fine, I'll be okay.</v>

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<v ->Nikki, we have some amazing portraits of yours</v>

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in the collection,

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in the National Portrait Gallery Collection,

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but you also have had quite a few portraits come through

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our National Photographic Portrait prize.

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Shall we start having a little look at some of the works

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or some of your incredible portraits from across

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the course of your career?

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I would love to start with one of my favourite portraits

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in the National Portrait Gallery Collection.

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And that is this, I'm hoping everybody at home

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can see this one now,

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that's this incredible portrait of Tilman Ruff.

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Would you mind telling us a little bit

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about this portrait, Nikki?

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<v ->The lovely Tilman.</v>

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I was contacted through Icon

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to photograph a portrait of Tilman,

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they asked me if I would be interested in doing it.

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And of course, I was very flattered to be asked,

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so I agreed.

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And I spoke to Tilman briefly beforehand,

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and he came to my house, he's a Nobel Peace Prize Laureate.

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And he brought his Nobel Peace Prize with him,

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which I was very excited about

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'cause I'd always wanted to see one,

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but all of the pictures I've seen of Tilman,

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he always had his glasses and a suit on,

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always looked very, you know, official.

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So we talked for quite a bit and he told me about

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how he'd go hiking in the Dolomite Mountains in Italy,

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how he'd spend time on the farm with his family.

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And I was really intrigued by that aspect of his work.

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And I know that he works with the Australian Red Cross

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in many countries.

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You know, he works with children

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and helps towards developing vaccines,

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and with Hepatitis B, and other things.

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So I said to him, can you bring a few things just from home

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that you'd be comfortable?

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And, and when he got to my house,

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he's actually just sitting at my kitchen table in Australia

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in this portrait.

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He pulled out this red sweater that had holes in it

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and I just thought it was great.

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<v Gil>I would love to start</v>

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with one of my favourite portraits

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in the National Portrait Gallery Collection.

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And that is this, I'm hoping everybody at home

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can see this one now,

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that's this incredible portrait of Tilman Ruff.

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Would you mind telling us a little bit

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about this portrait, Nikki?

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<v ->The lovely Tilman.</v>

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I was contacted through Icon

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to photograph a portrait of Tilman,

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they asked me if I would be interested in doing it.

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And of course, I was very flattered to be asked,

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so I agreed.

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And I spoke to Tilman briefly beforehand,

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and he came to my house, he's a Nobel Peace Prize Laureate.

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And he brought his Nobel Peace Prize with him,

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which I was very excited about

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'cause I'd always wanted to see one,

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but all of the pictures I've seen of Tilman,

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he always had his glasses and a suit on,

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always looked very, you know, official.

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So we talked for quite a bit and he told me about

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how he'd go hiking in the Dolomite Mountains in Italy,

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how he'd spend time on the farm with his family.

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And I was really intrigued by that aspect of his work.

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And I know that he works with the Australian Red Cross

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in many countries.

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You know, he works with children

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and helps towards developing vaccines,

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and with Hepatitis B, and other things.

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So I said to him, can you bring a few things just from home

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that you'd be comfortable?

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And, and when he got to my house,

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he's actually just sitting at my kitchen table in Australia

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in this portrait.

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He pulled out this red sweater that had holes in it

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and I just thought it was great.

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And I was like, that's what I'm thinking of.

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That's gonna be awesome.

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And he was also very comfortable in it.

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So I want people to be as comfortable as possible

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because I don't take a lot of shots.

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Sometimes I'll just do it on five or six of each person.

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So they need to feel relaxed very quickly.

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And it was great, we just talked,

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we talked about his German heritage and the traditions

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that they do at Christmas.

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And it kind of reminded me of him,

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Edmund Hillary, you know, the Explorer.

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And I felt that kind of stoic look about him,

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I kind of loved it and that's what I saw in Tilman.

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And I tried to kind of capture

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that essence in the photograph.

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<v ->I think you've done a brilliant job.</v>

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I was lucky enough to meet Tilman as well,

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when he came to record a portrait story interview with us

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at the portrait gallery and Matt,

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who's running our chat today might be able to pop a link

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to that interview in the chat here and on Facebook.

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So everyone can have a look because he really is

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one of the most delightful human beings

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you could hope to meet, so generous.

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And so, you know, generous with his time

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and just the incredible work that he does.

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<v ->Yeah. It's incredible what he'd achieved.</v>

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It's a huge achievement and I can see

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they were so well deserving, the whole of Icon,

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really of the Nobel Peace Prize,

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but he's very, just very sweet

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and really incredible human being first

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before anything else.

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Just the loveliest, one of the loveliest people

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I've ever met.

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So it was just such an honour to photograph Tilman.

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<v ->Interestingly,</v>

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I was having a look through

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this presentation last night, Nikki,

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and it's not that often

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that you photograph people looking off into the distance,

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a lot of your series,

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which we'll go delve into shortly,

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a very kind of, even if their body is angled,

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the gaze is very frontal.

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So is that something unusual for this particular portrait

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that, or is it just something that you get the right moment

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and you just know it's the right moment?

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<v ->It was just the right moment.</v>

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I think we were talking

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and the window is actually facing Tilman.

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So it's just that'll always use natural daylight if I can.

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And I just loved the way the light was,

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and there was something about the wedding ring facing

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the family one way, and the kind of looking over,

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is it's like he has a dual life in a way

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because he has the work he does,

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which must be incredibly time-consuming.

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And then he has this other life on the farm,

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which is also incredibly important to him.

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So I kind of liked the way that he was looking off almost

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like an Explorer, kind of enter the distance.

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You know, you see these images from the 1930s and things.

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So that was just the way I saw him because I saw a picture

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of him on the Dolomite Mountain's wearing an old sweater.

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I thought, Oh, that's the Tilman that I'm talking to.

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So I was just trying to capture that instead of the way,

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I sometimes like to try and capture people

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in a slightly different way than everyone usually sees them.

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So I think with this, I was quite happy with it in the end,

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because it was a little bit different

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from the more official images

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that you see of many shot in tie and everything.

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<v ->And a few years ago now you had an exhibition</v>

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at the National Portrait Gallery called "Skater."

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And I'd love to have a look at a few of those images

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for that exhibition now.

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And from that book, actually in that series,

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would you mind having talking us through the concept

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for this series?

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And we'll have a look

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at some of the portraits as we go through.

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<v ->Yeah. With Skater, I tend to a lot more work</v>

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'cause a thread running through it

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that's something that I'm actually very familiar with

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or something that comes from my youth or my childhood.

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And when I was young, I used to skate quite a bit.

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And I was really intrigued by the way that when you skate,

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you go into another headspace.

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So I compare it to people who know how to play the piano,

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after a while it becomes instinctive.

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If you think about the notes you're playing,

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you make a mistake.

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And when I talk to skaters, they all say the same.

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And one of the skaters Luke Brown who's actually,

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he's from Canberra, he's on the cover of the book.

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He told me it was like a zen moment.

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So when you skate, you go into like a zen headspace.

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So when I talked to the skaters, I said, you know,

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can you just stand?

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And can you imagine yourself in the headspace

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that you would be in?

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And it's interesting how similar they all looked in the end,

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when they all did this kind of hexed this look to me.

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So we travelled the world as much as we could

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for three years off and on, obviously,

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'cause we have to work in between.

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And every country I'd go to,

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I didn't want it to show, you know,

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a landmark like, Paris be, the Eiffel Tower

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or something like that.

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I want it to show the skate parts or a street

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they would be skating in.

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So it was kind of, you were focused on the skater

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and not so much on where they were,

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or the labels that they're wearing.

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So almost becomes like a partum

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when you look at them all together

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'cause there's 300 of them.

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So it's just these drove quite similar,

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they're quite different at the same time.

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<v Gil>Yeah, they're brilliant, aren't they?</v>

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And I was really struck when I was looking through

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the series again, just how many girls and women featured.

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<v ->It's a really big thing.</v>

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I think, it was funny when I came to Portugal

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and I did a talk with Chris at the time,

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and we talked about skating in different places

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where I have to shoot the project.

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I think quite a few people said to me afterwards,

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they didn't realise what positive experiences

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for a child to be able to skate

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because it gives them so much confidence.

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I mean, as one of the best forms of exercise

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that can really do, it doesn't cost much.

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They can skate almost anywhere and it brings them into

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a group that's a real comradery

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between young and old skaters alike.

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I think it's one of the best sports

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for young people that there is,

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because it appeals to people from all levels

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of the economic, you know,

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sort of you're haven't got much money,

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you can still usually find a secondhand skateboard

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or whatever, and you can have just as much fun.

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And there's just something really incredible

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about seeing young people gain a lot of confidence

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in themselves through skating.

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So I think it's underestimated

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of how important it really is within.

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We focus on other sports a lot, you know,

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like AFL and everything else, but skating is

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a very, very important to a child's wellbeing

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when they start learning how to do it.

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<v ->Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.</v>

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<v ->Sorry.</v>

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<v ->No, please.</v>

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<v ->It's fine.</v>

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<v ->Speaking of confidence,</v>

254
00:11:36.460 --> 00:11:39.100
the next series that we're gonna do pin to you,

255
00:11:39.100 --> 00:11:43.420
you can't beat the confidence in these women.

256
00:11:43.420 --> 00:11:45.839
In fact, a lot of people do try to beat the confidence

257
00:11:45.839 --> 00:11:47.934
(chuckles) out of these women (indistinct)

258
00:11:47.934 --> 00:11:49.680
<v ->These women are really incredible.</v>

259
00:11:49.680 --> 00:11:52.290
<v ->But we're talking about Roller Derby Girls.</v>

260
00:11:52.290 --> 00:11:54.740
<v ->The Roller of Darby are amazing.</v>

261
00:11:54.740 --> 00:11:58.840
I mean, I actually met a couple of them while shooting

262
00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:03.363
the skater project and had an idea for awhile.

263
00:12:04.440 --> 00:12:06.430
When I was young in Scotland,

264
00:12:06.430 --> 00:12:09.930
I would go to lots of places where there were always,

265
00:12:09.930 --> 00:12:12.820
you know, portraits of military portraits on the wall,

266
00:12:12.820 --> 00:12:16.070
military paintings from 19th century.

267
00:12:16.070 --> 00:12:17.510
And I loved it, they were just,

268
00:12:17.510 --> 00:12:21.960
it was this idea of the person and the painting

269
00:12:21.960 --> 00:12:25.480
who was in full military dress ready to go to battle

270
00:12:25.480 --> 00:12:28.510
was not the same person by any means

271
00:12:28.510 --> 00:12:30.920
who would actually be in battle.

272
00:12:30.920 --> 00:12:34.970
There were two very different representations of that person

273
00:12:34.970 --> 00:12:36.020
and their persona.

274
00:12:36.020 --> 00:12:40.800
And I loved these girls, you know,

275
00:12:40.800 --> 00:12:45.800
for example, Mel Andy is a librarian in a school,

276
00:12:45.910 --> 00:12:47.160
I'm not sure what else she does,

277
00:12:47.160 --> 00:12:51.170
but she's kinda an amazing person, she's the lucky day one.

278
00:12:51.170 --> 00:12:55.780
And so many of them were midwives or, you know, lawyers,

279
00:12:55.780 --> 00:12:58.830
teachers, they were all different professions.

280
00:12:58.830 --> 00:13:01.020
And then they all came together,

281
00:13:01.020 --> 00:13:03.110
which into quite a brutal sport.

282
00:13:03.110 --> 00:13:05.900
I mean, if you've ever seen a Roller Darby match,

283
00:13:05.900 --> 00:13:08.010
they don't take any prisoners.

284
00:13:08.010 --> 00:13:11.020
They're constantly covered in cuts and bruises

285
00:13:11.020 --> 00:13:14.200
because you have to basically knock the other person down

286
00:13:15.437 --> 00:13:19.570
at a high speed to win the game for your team.

287
00:13:19.570 --> 00:13:21.440
So they were just incredible.

288
00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:24.070
So I loved that they were wearing this armour

289
00:13:24.070 --> 00:13:27.650
and they all had these very different personalities.

290
00:13:27.650 --> 00:13:30.070
You know, they give themselves a name.

291
00:13:30.070 --> 00:13:35.070
So for example, and red stripes is Bambi Thumper,

292
00:13:35.550 --> 00:13:38.160
her name is, and she's our '50s persona,

293
00:13:38.160 --> 00:13:40.970
they all have these different personas and I just loved it.

294
00:13:40.970 --> 00:13:44.560
Cardi Deville is the girl next to her.

295
00:13:44.560 --> 00:13:47.350
And it was just great, they really invested in it.

296
00:13:47.350 --> 00:13:51.150
I love subcultures, I love these little subcultures

297
00:13:51.150 --> 00:13:53.740
where people really express themselves.

298
00:13:53.740 --> 00:13:57.300
It gives them confidence, they feel part of something.

299
00:13:57.300 --> 00:14:00.870
I think the idea of being part of that when you're young

300
00:14:00.870 --> 00:14:03.870
is so exciting, I think most of us were, you know,

301
00:14:03.870 --> 00:14:07.500
part of some music subculture or sports subculture.

302
00:14:07.500 --> 00:14:09.780
So they always intrigued me.

303
00:14:09.780 --> 00:14:13.483
And just for example, Ladywood, who's wearing,

304
00:14:14.712 --> 00:14:15.810
her name's incredible.

305
00:14:15.810 --> 00:14:17.683
She's wearing the red vest.

306
00:14:18.800 --> 00:14:22.540
She just has a mediaeval kind of sense to me, you know,

307
00:14:22.540 --> 00:14:26.090
like something from the tutors or something,

308
00:14:26.090 --> 00:14:28.850
and then was started just incre- they're just amazing.

309
00:14:28.850 --> 00:14:33.220
And the colours, there's a director I loved called,

310
00:14:33.220 --> 00:14:36.010
Douglas Sirk, who's an American Director,

311
00:14:36.010 --> 00:14:38.646
he did movies like, "All That Heaven Allows"

312
00:14:38.646 --> 00:14:41.260
and I loved the idea of the way

313
00:14:41.260 --> 00:14:44.470
he used colour and I wanted the colour to be kind of like that

314
00:14:44.470 --> 00:14:48.890
to be really, almost Technicolour feel about it.

315
00:14:48.890 --> 00:14:51.253
And it was easy because in this project,

316
00:14:52.470 --> 00:14:55.730
they were all so colourful when they would come to the house.

317
00:14:55.730 --> 00:14:58.560
And again, they were just photographed in my courtyard,

318
00:14:58.560 --> 00:15:00.480
using the daylight.

319
00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:03.910
So it just gives you the best representation of colour,

320
00:15:03.910 --> 00:15:06.030
'cause I'm quite, a lot of times I'm just on my own.

321
00:15:06.030 --> 00:15:09.160
So I never set up any lighting or anything

322
00:15:09.160 --> 00:15:12.720
and I would have them, if they came with a group of girls,

323
00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:15.610
I would have one of them hold the silver reflector.

324
00:15:15.610 --> 00:15:18.590
And that's the only light that usually bounces back.

325
00:15:18.590 --> 00:15:20.350
So it was great fun.

326
00:15:20.350 --> 00:15:21.183
And I loved meeting them,

327
00:15:21.183 --> 00:15:23.550
and I loved going to see them doing

328
00:15:23.550 --> 00:15:25.510
the Roller Derby bouts and things.

329
00:15:25.510 --> 00:15:27.643
So it was a great experience to have.

330
00:15:28.570 --> 00:15:29.920
<v ->It's absolutely incredible.</v>

331
00:15:29.920 --> 00:15:30.970
The lighting that you managed,

332
00:15:30.970 --> 00:15:32.830
it looks like full studio lighting,

333
00:15:32.830 --> 00:15:34.810
but you've just set them up in your courtyard

334
00:15:34.810 --> 00:15:37.820
with natural daylight and a reflector.

335
00:15:37.820 --> 00:15:39.590
<v ->I find it really works for me, I think</v>

336
00:15:39.590 --> 00:15:42.470
'cause I've used to 'cause I started shooting with film

337
00:15:42.470 --> 00:15:44.930
'cause of my age before digital,

338
00:15:44.930 --> 00:15:48.230
I found that's why I take very few shots as well,

339
00:15:48.230 --> 00:15:51.100
because we never, I think with digital,

340
00:15:51.100 --> 00:15:52.650
sometimes some photographers say, well,

341
00:15:52.650 --> 00:15:53.700
I shoot about a hundred.

342
00:15:53.700 --> 00:15:56.780
I can't imagine going through a hundred images of someone,

343
00:15:56.780 --> 00:15:59.190
they'll get around five, maybe six.

344
00:15:59.190 --> 00:16:03.290
You know because, I said to you before,

345
00:16:03.290 --> 00:16:04.310
when you've got it, you've got it.

346
00:16:04.310 --> 00:16:06.190
You know, when you've got the shot and then you know

347
00:16:06.190 --> 00:16:09.330
when it start to feel self-conscious or uncomfortable,

348
00:16:09.330 --> 00:16:12.500
you have to get it before that time hurts.

349
00:16:12.500 --> 00:16:14.420
And also, if you've got like five girls

350
00:16:14.420 --> 00:16:16.760
surrounded your house waiting to be photographed,

351
00:16:16.760 --> 00:16:20.740
you need to move it along and you can't spend an hour

352
00:16:20.740 --> 00:16:23.190
on each one, so it works.

353
00:16:23.190 --> 00:16:24.330
It's just the way I work.

354
00:16:24.330 --> 00:16:28.500
And I kind of enjoy that works for me when I'm doing it.

355
00:16:28.500 --> 00:16:30.490
<v ->You've preempted a question from Sue</v>

356
00:16:31.908 --> 00:16:33.840
on our Zoom call today,

357
00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:36.870
she was asking how many photos you normally take,

358
00:16:36.870 --> 00:16:38.950
before you know that you've got the final one for display,

359
00:16:38.950 --> 00:16:42.100
but I think that's answered that question beautifully.

360
00:16:42.100 --> 00:16:44.000
<v ->It's often the second one,</v>

361
00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:47.680
I'll say, it's usually the second one for some weird reason.

362
00:16:47.680 --> 00:16:50.720
<v ->Get the first one out of the way and then yeah.</v>

363
00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:52.430
You said that for the Skater,

364
00:16:52.430 --> 00:16:54.120
you were asking them to get into the mindset

365
00:16:54.120 --> 00:16:56.040
of when they were skating that zen zone.

366
00:16:56.040 --> 00:16:58.320
Was there a particular mindset that you challenged

367
00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:01.760
the Roller Girls to adopt when you were shooting?

368
00:17:01.760 --> 00:17:04.660
<v ->I did tell them about the idea of the portrait painting,</v>

369
00:17:04.660 --> 00:17:08.410
the military painting from, you know, the night,

370
00:17:08.410 --> 00:17:10.930
the First World War, or even before that,

371
00:17:10.930 --> 00:17:13.520
the Boer War wherever, and they totally understood.

372
00:17:13.520 --> 00:17:16.120
I said, you know, you're ready to go back to the margin

373
00:17:16.120 --> 00:17:18.230
that you're setting for painting.

374
00:17:18.230 --> 00:17:20.250
And they just, I said, how would you sit?

375
00:17:20.250 --> 00:17:23.120
And before they came to the house, I said to them,

376
00:17:23.120 --> 00:17:25.490
can you bring your favourite outfit?

377
00:17:25.490 --> 00:17:27.170
I didn't want them to wear their uniforms,

378
00:17:27.170 --> 00:17:29.860
I just said, bring your favourite training outfit

379
00:17:29.860 --> 00:17:31.220
that you love.

380
00:17:31.220 --> 00:17:34.140
Because every single person I photograph,

381
00:17:34.140 --> 00:17:37.680
I send them a high-res file of the image.

382
00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:41.270
So because I feel they get me so much by just agreeing

383
00:17:41.270 --> 00:17:42.670
to let me photograph them.

384
00:17:42.670 --> 00:17:44.740
So I said, you know, you're gonna get a high-res file,

385
00:17:44.740 --> 00:17:46.590
You can print, it'll be a good print,

386
00:17:48.020 --> 00:17:50.830
bring something that you want to keep.

387
00:17:50.830 --> 00:17:53.050
So I think that's also quite important.

388
00:17:53.050 --> 00:17:55.620
We did it with the skater, I did it with all of the people

389
00:17:55.620 --> 00:17:58.010
I photographed, we do the same thing, I mean,

390
00:17:58.010 --> 00:17:59.340
I do the same thing.

391
00:17:59.340 --> 00:18:01.780
I would say we, because my partner, Andy always carries

392
00:18:01.780 --> 00:18:04.920
the tripod and usually holds the reflector for me,

393
00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:08.350
so it's like a joint exercise,

394
00:18:08.350 --> 00:18:11.160
but I think that's important to feel

395
00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:14.983
that you can give something back to someone for the time.

396
00:18:16.690 --> 00:18:19.640
<v ->Yeah. The next series that we're going to have a look at,</v>

397
00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:22.320
we're gonna jump now because you headed off

398
00:18:22.320 --> 00:18:25.180
on one of your international expeditions

399
00:18:25.180 --> 00:18:28.480
and we've got a series of people who may as well be

400
00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:31.990
in uniform, I suppose, but also a community.

401
00:18:31.990 --> 00:18:35.240
And these are the guys are "The Meat Workers."

402
00:18:35.240 --> 00:18:38.240
<v ->Yeah. Sometimes when I'm travelling,</v>

403
00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:40.880
I'll do a long project that will take a few years.

404
00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:42.950
And when I'm travelling some places,

405
00:18:42.950 --> 00:18:45.630
I arranged to do a mini project, I call it.

406
00:18:45.630 --> 00:18:47.810
So it's a project that's maybe short,

407
00:18:47.810 --> 00:18:50.640
the whole project of the space of one hour, for example,

408
00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:52.603
like this one was so,

409
00:18:54.030 --> 00:18:56.820
'cause I lived in London for 15 years.

410
00:18:56.820 --> 00:19:00.600
Smithfield's Meat Market is well known to any Londoner.

411
00:19:00.600 --> 00:19:03.220
And it's a place of incredible history.

412
00:19:03.220 --> 00:19:06.033
It's got a hideous, bloody history actually.

413
00:19:07.089 --> 00:19:11.000
In 1305, William Wallace was executed there.

414
00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:13.630
And after that, it was a place of execution

415
00:19:13.630 --> 00:19:16.410
before the actual meat market building was there.

416
00:19:16.410 --> 00:19:19.530
So during the 16th century,

417
00:19:19.530 --> 00:19:23.530
people were burned at the stake there and later on,

418
00:19:23.530 --> 00:19:24.900
they were boiled alive

419
00:19:24.900 --> 00:19:26.660
and then it was...
<v ->Oh my gosh.</v>

420
00:19:26.660 --> 00:19:27.790
<v ->I know it's horrendous.</v>

421
00:19:27.790 --> 00:19:32.790
And then it was a slaughterhouse, an arbitrage market.

422
00:19:33.180 --> 00:19:35.750
And at the time they built it up on the hill

423
00:19:35.750 --> 00:19:40.120
so that the breeze would carry the smell away a little bit.

424
00:19:40.120 --> 00:19:44.063
So it's 800 years old, some say 1838,

425
00:19:45.442 --> 00:19:46.970
has been a dead meat market.

426
00:19:46.970 --> 00:19:48.510
I mean, I don't even eat meat.

427
00:19:48.510 --> 00:19:51.260
So it was kind of a challenge that was quite interesting

428
00:19:51.260 --> 00:19:52.990
to go and meet these guys.

429
00:19:52.990 --> 00:19:57.140
But I went to meet them, they were amazing.

430
00:19:57.140 --> 00:20:00.250
I was in, I got across the street from the meat market

431
00:20:00.250 --> 00:20:02.890
and a little alleyway, Baltimore passage,

432
00:20:02.890 --> 00:20:04.330
you couldn't make it up.

433
00:20:04.330 --> 00:20:08.870
And they would come out, I left 4:00 AM to get there,

434
00:20:08.870 --> 00:20:11.190
and they would come out and they would run across

435
00:20:11.190 --> 00:20:13.513
and they would stand, and I would say,

436
00:20:14.510 --> 00:20:16.960
because there were being heckled by everyone else

437
00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:19.670
from the market, they were really heckling them.

438
00:20:19.670 --> 00:20:22.600
I just said, look at me, I'm gonna take five shots of you.

439
00:20:22.600 --> 00:20:25.350
I want you to imagine it's a mugshot

440
00:20:25.350 --> 00:20:28.230
'cause I love the idea that criminals have dealt with,

441
00:20:28.230 --> 00:20:29.780
being at this meat market.

442
00:20:29.780 --> 00:20:30.903
So I said, imagine it's your mugshot,

443
00:20:30.903 --> 00:20:34.730
and that's the face they did, which is kind of incredible.

444
00:20:34.730 --> 00:20:38.080
But there were interesting characters who were real,

445
00:20:38.080 --> 00:20:40.950
you know, some of them are third generation.

446
00:20:40.950 --> 00:20:44.900
Bethel who's wearing the red cap, who's covered in blood

447
00:20:44.900 --> 00:20:47.031
in the first frame,

448
00:20:47.031 --> 00:20:50.840
he's worked there for 45 years and they call him Bethel

449
00:20:50.840 --> 00:20:54.230
because every day after the weekend,

450
00:20:54.230 --> 00:20:57.300
he would come in with a black eye or something.

451
00:20:57.300 --> 00:20:59.730
So there was incredible, the stories,

452
00:20:59.730 --> 00:21:02.120
they go to bed at nine o'clock at night,

453
00:21:02.120 --> 00:21:04.507
they got up at one in the morning to go to work

454
00:21:05.420 --> 00:21:08.460
and they do this for their whole working life.

455
00:21:08.460 --> 00:21:10.150
It's just insanity.

456
00:21:10.150 --> 00:21:14.030
I don't know how they do it, but they were funny,

457
00:21:14.030 --> 00:21:16.330
they were really brutal.

458
00:21:16.330 --> 00:21:17.500
I mean, I don't really care,

459
00:21:17.500 --> 00:21:20.520
I've heard all kinds of languages, it doesn't fears me,

460
00:21:20.520 --> 00:21:21.940
but it was brutal.

461
00:21:21.940 --> 00:21:23.710
They were being, 'cause the guys were trying

462
00:21:23.710 --> 00:21:25.010
to make them laugh and stuff,

463
00:21:25.010 --> 00:21:26.790
but they were good, they just focused on me.

464
00:21:26.790 --> 00:21:30.610
They let me, you know, each one took about five minutes,

465
00:21:30.610 --> 00:21:34.360
six minutes, next one came across the street.

466
00:21:34.360 --> 00:21:35.990
So yeah, it was great.

467
00:21:35.990 --> 00:21:40.327
It was really interesting to photograph it

468
00:21:40.327 --> 00:21:42.203
before it disappears.

469
00:21:43.111 --> 00:21:45.891
<v ->I hate to ask what this fellow is carrying.</v>

470
00:21:45.891 --> 00:21:50.810
<v ->I think it's livers, chicken livers, I think you have.</v>

471
00:21:50.810 --> 00:21:53.220
Yeah. And you can see on some of the jackets,

472
00:21:53.220 --> 00:21:56.550
they actually write the orders on the jackets

473
00:21:56.550 --> 00:21:58.460
just by it like pen vital,

474
00:21:58.460 --> 00:22:00.810
they write the orders from people on their coats,

475
00:22:00.810 --> 00:22:01.843
on their sleeves.

476
00:22:03.130 --> 00:22:04.520
I mean, they're kind of incredible,

477
00:22:04.520 --> 00:22:07.140
you can see his little cup of coffee balanced

478
00:22:07.140 --> 00:22:10.770
on the side there, but it was, yeah,

479
00:22:10.770 --> 00:22:13.020
it was really interesting because there's a trainline now

480
00:22:13.020 --> 00:22:15.600
called, I forget what it's called.

481
00:22:15.600 --> 00:22:17.910
It's some kind of city like, and it might mean

482
00:22:17.910 --> 00:22:19.400
that the meat market's closed down

483
00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:21.600
when they redevelop it into apartments,

484
00:22:21.600 --> 00:22:24.830
I would never want to live in an apartment on that site,

485
00:22:24.830 --> 00:22:27.840
but people will, because it's an incredible building.

486
00:22:27.840 --> 00:22:29.843
It's incredible history to it.

487
00:22:32.300 --> 00:22:33.620
<v Gil>I'd never thought about it before,</v>

488
00:22:33.620 --> 00:22:35.640
but those white coats that they wear, I mean,

489
00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:37.730
it's not the most practical colour

490
00:22:37.730 --> 00:22:38.792
for a butcher.
<v ->I don't know.</v>

491
00:22:38.792 --> 00:22:40.910
<v ->I mean, that surely.</v>

492
00:22:40.910 --> 00:22:43.530
<v ->It's all good, I'd wished they wear red or.</v>

493
00:22:43.530 --> 00:22:47.030
<v ->It's got a really clinical kind of doctor-isk feel to it.</v>

494
00:22:47.030 --> 00:22:49.560
I wonder if that's the tradition of where it used to be,

495
00:22:49.560 --> 00:22:52.660
you know, people were slaughtered there, but yeah.

496
00:22:52.660 --> 00:22:55.513
<v ->I think it's always been butchers have worn them,</v>

497
00:22:56.700 --> 00:22:59.163
so it's quite interesting, but they were great.

498
00:23:00.210 --> 00:23:02.530
<v ->I am, I have to issue a bit of a trigger warning</v>

499
00:23:02.530 --> 00:23:03.670
for the next picture.

500
00:23:03.670 --> 00:23:08.268
I think this is probably one of my favourite portraits

501
00:23:08.268 --> 00:23:10.120
in the presentation,

502
00:23:10.120 --> 00:23:12.170
but a lot of other people I've discovered

503
00:23:12.170 --> 00:23:15.000
don't really like clowns, but anyway,

504
00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:17.840
do you want to introduce us to Pennywise from Canada?

505
00:23:17.840 --> 00:23:19.010
Is it Canada?

506
00:23:19.010 --> 00:23:19.843
<v ->Alaska.</v>

507
00:23:19.843 --> 00:23:21.020
<v ->Oh, Alaska, of course.</v>

508
00:23:21.020 --> 00:23:24.170
<v ->Yeah. So we've been travelling,</v>

509
00:23:24.170 --> 00:23:25.770
which might have time to come too late.

510
00:23:25.770 --> 00:23:28.550
We were trapped, we set off on a trip for a year

511
00:23:28.550 --> 00:23:30.230
and we were in Juneau, Alaska,

512
00:23:30.230 --> 00:23:32.760
but we were there out of tourist season.

513
00:23:32.760 --> 00:23:34.550
So there weren't a lot of people around

514
00:23:34.550 --> 00:23:36.097
and it was cold and it was wet,

515
00:23:36.097 --> 00:23:38.680
and you can only fly in or get a boat

516
00:23:38.680 --> 00:23:42.790
and you can't drive because there's no road, and a route.

517
00:23:42.790 --> 00:23:45.700
It's incredible, there's glaciers and tribal trees.

518
00:23:45.700 --> 00:23:49.710
So it was Halloween and we went to the supermarket

519
00:23:49.710 --> 00:23:52.420
or my partner, Andy ran into supermarket to get something.

520
00:23:52.420 --> 00:23:54.900
He said, you've got to get in there with your camera.

521
00:23:54.900 --> 00:23:57.340
And there's a guy dressed as Pennywise.

522
00:23:57.340 --> 00:23:59.930
And it was, his name is JP, he was really lovely.

523
00:23:59.930 --> 00:24:02.040
And he was one of the workers there

524
00:24:02.040 --> 00:24:04.600
and he was having his photograph taken with the children.

525
00:24:04.600 --> 00:24:06.450
So it's all these small children.

526
00:24:06.450 --> 00:24:08.360
And I just said to him, can I take your portrait?

527
00:24:08.360 --> 00:24:09.600
It's incredible.

528
00:24:09.600 --> 00:24:11.820
And I just love that he's wearing his glasses

529
00:24:11.820 --> 00:24:15.020
and he's got his little Fred Meyer's badge on

530
00:24:15.020 --> 00:24:18.240
and he's put Pennywise instead of his name.

531
00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:20.770
And it was just surreal with the lighting,

532
00:24:20.770 --> 00:24:23.470
the harsh lighting in the store.

533
00:24:23.470 --> 00:24:25.730
And yeah, he was great.

534
00:24:25.730 --> 00:24:26.620
And he was really happy.

535
00:24:26.620 --> 00:24:30.310
I sent him the photograph and he was really excited to have,

536
00:24:30.310 --> 00:24:32.430
you know, a record of that day.

537
00:24:32.430 --> 00:24:35.840
So you just never know you've got to always be prepared.

538
00:24:35.840 --> 00:24:39.620
You never know when you're gonna see something incredible.

539
00:24:39.620 --> 00:24:41.710
<v ->And in some of the most obscure places</v>

540
00:24:41.710 --> 00:24:43.720
that you would least expect something like that.

541
00:24:43.720 --> 00:24:46.200
<v ->Yeah. Juneau, Alaska, it's not what I would have.</v>

542
00:24:46.200 --> 00:24:48.160
I was hoping to see some kind of Halloween thing,

543
00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:51.673
but there was nothing until we went to the supermarket.

544
00:24:53.570 --> 00:24:58.570
<v ->Oh, dear. So jumping across continents again,</v>

545
00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:01.690
would you like to talk us through this incredible series

546
00:25:01.690 --> 00:25:05.103
of the Pride March that you shot in New York City?

547
00:25:06.200 --> 00:25:08.640
<v ->So this is a project that's ongoing.</v>

548
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:11.900
So I'm going back in June to shoot again.

549
00:25:11.900 --> 00:25:15.563
I was supposed to go, obviously COVID, can't go.

550
00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:21.480
So this was 2018 and I'd been at work in the states

551
00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:24.860
for awhile and I'd been back and forward, you know,

552
00:25:24.860 --> 00:25:26.200
most years at one point

553
00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:28.160
'cause we have so many friends there.

554
00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:31.650
And I remember talking to friends and how the mood

555
00:25:31.650 --> 00:25:34.210
had changed when Trump was President.

556
00:25:34.210 --> 00:25:35.730
And when Obama was president,

557
00:25:35.730 --> 00:25:39.300
they had celebrate Pride's Day.

558
00:25:39.300 --> 00:25:41.690
You know, he'd give speeches about how he wanted people

559
00:25:41.690 --> 00:25:45.870
to feel included and we should support these young people.

560
00:25:45.870 --> 00:25:48.240
But for the second year running,

561
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:51.790
Trump had failed to acknowledge pride at all

562
00:25:51.790 --> 00:25:55.660
and he'd removed towards transgender,

563
00:25:55.660 --> 00:25:56.493
can't remember the other one,

564
00:25:56.493 --> 00:25:59.570
it removed it from any documentation that was online

565
00:25:59.570 --> 00:26:00.403
at the White House.

566
00:26:00.403 --> 00:26:05.403
They were trying basically to erase the LGBTQ community

567
00:26:05.710 --> 00:26:09.110
and they were imposing lots of harsh restrictions.

568
00:26:09.110 --> 00:26:10.750
It was a horrific time.

569
00:26:10.750 --> 00:26:13.770
So I thought it'd be quite interesting after talking

570
00:26:13.770 --> 00:26:18.170
to some of our gay friends in the gay community

571
00:26:18.170 --> 00:26:21.080
to go to New York and to see what the mood was like

572
00:26:21.080 --> 00:26:24.680
and talk to some of these people and to photograph them.

573
00:26:24.680 --> 00:26:26.690
And it was 41 degrees.

574
00:26:26.690 --> 00:26:29.785
It was New York always feels hotter than anywhere else,

575
00:26:29.785 --> 00:26:31.288
in spite one degrees.

576
00:26:31.288 --> 00:26:33.693
And I would just basically run round and, you know,

577
00:26:33.693 --> 00:26:35.180
they were so excited to be out,

578
00:26:35.180 --> 00:26:37.110
the atmosphere was incredible.

579
00:26:37.110 --> 00:26:39.920
And some people that was the first pride and they told me,

580
00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:41.950
you know, it's the first pride they'd had,

581
00:26:41.950 --> 00:26:43.780
and they just felt amazing

582
00:26:43.780 --> 00:26:46.230
because other people understood them.

583
00:26:46.230 --> 00:26:49.220
They'd come from little towns all over America

584
00:26:49.220 --> 00:26:50.930
to go to New York Pride.

585
00:26:50.930 --> 00:26:54.110
I mean, it is just one of the most joyful experiences

586
00:26:54.110 --> 00:26:55.560
that I've ever had in my life.

587
00:26:55.560 --> 00:26:57.860
There's nowhere like it.

588
00:26:57.860 --> 00:27:01.520
And there's, I get a young girl said to me,

589
00:27:01.520 --> 00:27:03.640
if every day could be like this,

590
00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:05.820
New York would be the happiest place on earth.

591
00:27:05.820 --> 00:27:07.900
And I always remember saying that,

592
00:27:07.900 --> 00:27:09.290
and it's the girl, the young girl,

593
00:27:09.290 --> 00:27:10.620
it's her first ever pride.

594
00:27:10.620 --> 00:27:13.460
She went on her own and it was just incredible.

595
00:27:13.460 --> 00:27:16.290
And then I spoke to these two young people who had worked on

596
00:27:16.290 --> 00:27:21.290
the Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez, who's an amazing Democrat.

597
00:27:22.320 --> 00:27:25.230
They'd worked on her campaign and the other one worked

598
00:27:25.230 --> 00:27:27.410
on the Bernie campaign before.

599
00:27:27.410 --> 00:27:30.640
And they told me about how they really hope that, you know,

600
00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:32.670
there would be a change in American politics,

601
00:27:32.670 --> 00:27:37.130
but they felt that they were trying, Trump was trying

602
00:27:37.130 --> 00:27:39.940
to erase them and they were not gonna be erased,

603
00:27:39.940 --> 00:27:41.030
they were gonna be around.

604
00:27:41.030 --> 00:27:44.360
And it was a really incredible atmosphere.

605
00:27:44.360 --> 00:27:48.260
People were not, you know, laying down and taking it.

606
00:27:48.260 --> 00:27:50.407
New Yorkers are a breed on their own,

607
00:27:50.407 --> 00:27:53.160
but it was just the most incredible day.

608
00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:57.170
I just loved meeting all these young people

609
00:27:57.170 --> 00:27:58.170
and chatting to them.

610
00:27:58.170 --> 00:28:01.170
And it's great when it's an experience,

611
00:28:01.170 --> 00:28:03.590
as well as you get work that you liked from it.

612
00:28:03.590 --> 00:28:06.500
These girls were, I love these girls so much.

613
00:28:06.500 --> 00:28:08.780
They were like 14 or 15.

614
00:28:08.780 --> 00:28:11.600
And you know, they've really hard attitude.

615
00:28:11.600 --> 00:28:14.720
Sometimes people try to smile and because sometimes

616
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:16.280
I would only get two or three images

617
00:28:16.280 --> 00:28:18.700
before it was swallowed up again by the crowd,

618
00:28:18.700 --> 00:28:19.533
they would go, what you want.

619
00:28:19.533 --> 00:28:22.117
I just go be cool, and that's what they were doing,

620
00:28:22.117 --> 00:28:25.050
it was just, I knew they would respond to that.

621
00:28:25.050 --> 00:28:29.090
So it was, and they are just super cool, look at them.

622
00:28:29.090 --> 00:28:31.250
But yeah, they were amazing.

623
00:28:31.250 --> 00:28:32.210
They were just incredible.

624
00:28:32.210 --> 00:28:35.080
And I can't wait to go back this year

625
00:28:35.080 --> 00:28:38.780
and just shoot more of the series as well.

626
00:28:38.780 --> 00:28:39.963
It's gonna be amazing.

627
00:28:41.120 --> 00:28:44.410
<v ->Nita on our Zoom call was commenting</v>

628
00:28:44.410 --> 00:28:46.900
that they don't seem very happy and they seem very neutral.

629
00:28:46.900 --> 00:28:48.740
And she was asking what you'd asked them to be.

630
00:28:48.740 --> 00:28:52.160
So clearly that kind of cool faces is transferring

631
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:55.300
into this kind of intense blue still, I suppose.

632
00:28:55.300 --> 00:28:57.707
<v ->They loved it, I think they kind of liked it,</v>

633
00:28:57.707 --> 00:29:01.320
and the thing was as well, I've often ask,

634
00:29:01.320 --> 00:29:03.280
people ask me all the time, why don't people smile?

635
00:29:03.280 --> 00:29:04.700
Why don't people smile in pictures?

636
00:29:04.700 --> 00:29:06.027
And I usually say, well,

637
00:29:06.027 --> 00:29:08.210
I'm usually interested in a certain mindset

638
00:29:08.210 --> 00:29:09.680
or I just want people to be natural.

639
00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:12.730
We don't walk around smiling like a date, it's all day,

640
00:29:12.730 --> 00:29:14.240
you know, the kind of,

641
00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:16.910
we're just natural our faces resting,

642
00:29:16.910 --> 00:29:18.600
are really interesting.

643
00:29:18.600 --> 00:29:21.620
I find just your natural resting face.

644
00:29:21.620 --> 00:29:25.500
Very interesting, because I feel like when people smile,

645
00:29:25.500 --> 00:29:28.630
I feel like, I see smiling images of people everywhere

646
00:29:28.630 --> 00:29:30.240
on social media.

647
00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:32.670
And I really feel you get more of the person

648
00:29:32.670 --> 00:29:35.490
when you just say, you know, be yourself.

649
00:29:35.490 --> 00:29:37.840
And it's a personal thing to me,

650
00:29:37.840 --> 00:29:39.780
I find it much more interesting.

651
00:29:39.780 --> 00:29:42.560
When I look at old photography, the ghetto types

652
00:29:42.560 --> 00:29:44.990
and paintings, no one smiling in them,

653
00:29:44.990 --> 00:29:47.520
everyone's just being themselves, being relaxed.

654
00:29:47.520 --> 00:29:51.993
So that's what I kind of love when I'm taking photographs.

655
00:29:53.230 --> 00:29:57.540
<v ->So from one joyous crowds to maybe not so joyous crowds,</v>

656
00:29:57.540 --> 00:30:00.540
if you skip across, we're really going international

657
00:30:00.540 --> 00:30:03.760
with this programme and we're heading off to Mexico.

658
00:30:03.760 --> 00:30:07.300
<v ->Yeah. So as part of our trip, we were in Mexico City,</v>

659
00:30:07.300 --> 00:30:10.083
one of the best places to visit on earth.

660
00:30:11.220 --> 00:30:15.610
If you've never been to Mexico, it's beyond incredible.

661
00:30:15.610 --> 00:30:17.250
Some people say, Oh, but you're not afraid?

662
00:30:17.250 --> 00:30:19.350
It's incredible, people are lovely.

663
00:30:19.350 --> 00:30:22.360
The food is great, the architecture is incredible.

664
00:30:22.360 --> 00:30:25.060
And I met the Mexican Roller Derby

665
00:30:25.060 --> 00:30:27.210
in Mexico City, Roller Derby team.

666
00:30:27.210 --> 00:30:29.660
And this is one of, this is Annalisa.

667
00:30:29.660 --> 00:30:34.660
And they were just stunning, like strong women.

668
00:30:34.780 --> 00:30:35.613
They were great.

669
00:30:35.613 --> 00:30:38.380
And we talked a lot about problems that were happening

670
00:30:38.380 --> 00:30:41.560
in Mexico City and a Mexican General at the time

671
00:30:41.560 --> 00:30:43.730
with women, with femicide.

672
00:30:43.730 --> 00:30:47.800
And a lot of them had a purple in their hair,

673
00:30:47.800 --> 00:30:50.370
which is for violence against women.

674
00:30:50.370 --> 00:30:53.850
So that was a real, I would not hear their side of that

675
00:30:53.850 --> 00:30:55.210
and what was happening with them.

676
00:30:55.210 --> 00:30:59.350
And it probably leads onto the next one you're gonna show.

677
00:30:59.350 --> 00:31:00.843
So when we were there,

678
00:31:01.719 --> 00:31:05.333
there were a few young women had been taken by gangs,

679
00:31:07.080 --> 00:31:11.460
by police and raped, and murdered.

680
00:31:11.460 --> 00:31:15.530
So there was a lot of femicide happening and the women felt

681
00:31:15.530 --> 00:31:17.210
like nothing is being done about this.

682
00:31:17.210 --> 00:31:20.050
So this was a protest one day.

683
00:31:20.050 --> 00:31:22.670
And the really interesting thing was there were,

684
00:31:22.670 --> 00:31:26.300
the crowds went on way up the street, you couldn't,

685
00:31:26.300 --> 00:31:29.890
that was as far as I could see of these women marching

686
00:31:29.890 --> 00:31:31.970
and from to neither side of them

687
00:31:31.970 --> 00:31:34.650
were only female officers.

688
00:31:34.650 --> 00:31:38.730
So there are hundreds of female Mexican officers

689
00:31:38.730 --> 00:31:41.750
because they knew there would be an absolute,

690
00:31:41.750 --> 00:31:45.960
like out-of-control riot of any male officers would there

691
00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:50.190
because a male officer had murdered a young girl recently,

692
00:31:50.190 --> 00:31:51.960
I think she was like 13.

693
00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:55.560
And so all the men were kept out.

694
00:31:55.560 --> 00:31:58.000
So Andy was with me, but he was on the other side

695
00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:03.000
of the barrier, I ran in and there were Molotov cocktails.

696
00:32:03.120 --> 00:32:05.750
You know, the were setting fire to the road.

697
00:32:05.750 --> 00:32:07.600
He offered this was incredible

698
00:32:07.600 --> 00:32:09.160
'cause I got right and crouched down.

699
00:32:09.160 --> 00:32:13.190
And they were spraying red spray paint on the faces

700
00:32:13.190 --> 00:32:16.200
of the officers and things in protest.

701
00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:18.930
And I mean, these female officers were kind of incredible,

702
00:32:18.930 --> 00:32:20.630
to be honest, they just stood their ground,

703
00:32:20.630 --> 00:32:21.913
they were so calm.

704
00:32:23.649 --> 00:32:28.300
It was a real sight to see, but I thought it was,

705
00:32:28.300 --> 00:32:30.673
I love the strength and the power of them.

706
00:32:31.550 --> 00:32:34.170
I love a protest when it's a protest,

707
00:32:34.170 --> 00:32:37.530
that's supposed something that's meaningful.

708
00:32:37.530 --> 00:32:39.141
You know, we have a lot protests,

709
00:32:39.141 --> 00:32:42.360
but things that are not meaningful that are just stupid,

710
00:32:42.360 --> 00:32:44.330
but this was really meaningful.

711
00:32:44.330 --> 00:32:46.270
This was about women's lives in Mexico.

712
00:32:46.270 --> 00:32:49.410
And I really admire the much huge admiration.

713
00:32:49.410 --> 00:32:51.870
And it was weird, I had no fear

714
00:32:51.870 --> 00:32:53.900
because I think the adrenaline kicks in

715
00:32:53.900 --> 00:32:56.050
and you're just trying to take photographs.

716
00:32:56.050 --> 00:32:57.900
You know, there's things flying over your head.

717
00:32:57.900 --> 00:32:59.980
It's like, it's not gonna hit me, it's fine.

718
00:32:59.980 --> 00:33:02.253
So you just go on with it.

719
00:33:03.134 --> 00:33:05.970
And then afterwards you're like, wow, that was really close.

720
00:33:05.970 --> 00:33:06.920
But it was fine.

721
00:33:06.920 --> 00:33:10.390
It was, yeah, it was a real experience, you know?

722
00:33:10.390 --> 00:33:12.503
So that was cool.

723
00:33:14.250 --> 00:33:18.963
<v ->And so on one of your international adventures,</v>

724
00:33:19.800 --> 00:33:21.570
your most recent international adventure,

725
00:33:21.570 --> 00:33:23.530
I was expecting Nikki to be back in Melbourne,

726
00:33:23.530 --> 00:33:25.700
probably almost by now, is that right, Nikki?

727
00:33:25.700 --> 00:33:27.850
You would normally go for about 12 months.

728
00:33:27.850 --> 00:33:30.440
<v ->We were going for, it's really bizarre</v>

729
00:33:30.440 --> 00:33:34.670
because we renovated our most recent house.

730
00:33:34.670 --> 00:33:37.210
We sold it, we put our stuff in storage and we said,

731
00:33:37.210 --> 00:33:41.200
let's go travelling for a year and we'll go to Italy

732
00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:43.530
and Mexico, and Morocco, and Iceland, and everywhere.

733
00:33:43.530 --> 00:33:48.130
So six months then, we were in Venice for in Carnival,

734
00:33:48.130 --> 00:33:52.170
and when we went into the airport, this was in February,

735
00:33:52.170 --> 00:33:54.593
they took a temperature before they would let us

736
00:33:54.593 --> 00:33:55.940
into the city.

737
00:33:55.940 --> 00:33:57.670
We thought that's kind of strange.

738
00:33:57.670 --> 00:34:00.940
And then, but what was happening at the same time was

739
00:34:00.940 --> 00:34:03.290
an area outside of Milan to the east of Milan,

740
00:34:03.290 --> 00:34:06.960
COVID had obviously broken out.

741
00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:09.320
And Carnival was packed,

742
00:34:09.320 --> 00:34:11.853
where people everywhere no one for anything of it.

743
00:34:12.790 --> 00:34:14.700
I'm not fond of huge crowds,

744
00:34:14.700 --> 00:34:17.500
so we kind of stopped to look back streets we'd been before,

745
00:34:17.500 --> 00:34:20.590
we just wanted to chill and be in Venice.

746
00:34:20.590 --> 00:34:22.320
And then when we left Venice

747
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:24.930
it had spread to Venice at that point.

748
00:34:24.930 --> 00:34:27.830
And it started to really take off.

749
00:34:27.830 --> 00:34:30.663
And we thought, Oh, this is kind of really strange now.

750
00:34:31.710 --> 00:34:32.750
So this was in Venice.

751
00:34:32.750 --> 00:34:35.740
This is the, they don't like having the cruise ships.

752
00:34:35.740 --> 00:34:38.080
So I think with not having them anymore,

753
00:34:38.080 --> 00:34:40.460
'cause it was ruining, it was killing the city,

754
00:34:40.460 --> 00:34:41.540
it's destroying it.

755
00:34:41.540 --> 00:34:43.240
But it's quite interesting that I took the picture

756
00:34:43.240 --> 00:34:45.210
of the cruise ship, but here's the sign that says,

757
00:34:45.210 --> 00:34:48.550
always look on the bright side of human extinction,

758
00:34:48.550 --> 00:34:52.010
which is kind of prophetic, in a way.

759
00:34:52.010 --> 00:34:55.250
And so we thought, okay, we all head south

760
00:34:55.250 --> 00:34:57.690
because the south was still okay.

761
00:34:57.690 --> 00:35:01.070
But every time we headed somewhere COVID would be there,

762
00:35:01.070 --> 00:35:03.200
Andy said, I think we are the super spreaders

763
00:35:03.200 --> 00:35:06.380
because it's, you know, it was following us with Florence.

764
00:35:06.380 --> 00:35:09.420
We just kept driving south and everywhere we went,

765
00:35:09.420 --> 00:35:11.020
it was just deserted.

766
00:35:11.020 --> 00:35:13.800
And then we were in a place called Scanno,

767
00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:16.540
that's a little Hilltop town, there was no one there.

768
00:35:16.540 --> 00:35:19.570
We found a cafe that was open and we went

769
00:35:19.570 --> 00:35:22.940
for a coffee and an Australian girl from Sydney

770
00:35:22.940 --> 00:35:24.880
was working there, she was visiting our family.

771
00:35:24.880 --> 00:35:26.900
There were only four people in the cafe

772
00:35:26.900 --> 00:35:27.970
and she asked us what we were doing

773
00:35:27.970 --> 00:35:30.010
and I said, yeah, we're just travelling.

774
00:35:30.010 --> 00:35:32.740
She said, well, if you want to get out of Italy,

775
00:35:32.740 --> 00:35:34.510
you better leave in the next two days

776
00:35:34.510 --> 00:35:37.770
because they're closing the borders, we don't even know.

777
00:35:37.770 --> 00:35:39.960
So we booked a few flights.

778
00:35:39.960 --> 00:35:41.770
We thought, where will we go?

779
00:35:41.770 --> 00:35:44.130
Paris wasn't even on our itinerary,

780
00:35:44.130 --> 00:35:45.830
but we thought we might be stuck there

781
00:35:45.830 --> 00:35:48.050
and I could speak a tiny bit of French.

782
00:35:48.050 --> 00:35:51.080
So we decided we'd go to Paris and see what happened.

783
00:35:51.080 --> 00:35:55.100
And we got the last flight out of Rome to Paris

784
00:35:57.457 --> 00:35:59.740
and we booked about three or four flights.

785
00:35:59.740 --> 00:36:02.190
And then we were in Paris, we got Paris everyone

786
00:36:02.190 --> 00:36:04.560
was walking by like nothing was wrong.

787
00:36:04.560 --> 00:36:06.760
The second night we're in Paris, we were up,

788
00:36:06.760 --> 00:36:09.470
our hotel was up by the Acta Atrium.

789
00:36:09.470 --> 00:36:12.070
Suddenly all the cars stopped, there were police everywhere.

790
00:36:12.070 --> 00:36:15.640
And we were told, you have until 12 o'clock the next day

791
00:36:15.640 --> 00:36:19.520
to arrange your things because we're going into lockdown.

792
00:36:19.520 --> 00:36:21.620
So we went back to the hotel the next morning,

793
00:36:21.620 --> 00:36:22.990
the hotel tells us, sorry,

794
00:36:22.990 --> 00:36:25.603
you have to leave, were closing the hotel.

795
00:36:26.570 --> 00:36:30.670
We needed a piece of paper that we signed

796
00:36:30.670 --> 00:36:31.690
to be able to go out.

797
00:36:31.690 --> 00:36:34.370
We went out for one hour a day, one colomar,

798
00:36:34.370 --> 00:36:36.890
this lasted like six weeks.

799
00:36:36.890 --> 00:36:41.410
Luckily we find an apartment to rent the one were in now,

800
00:36:41.410 --> 00:36:46.400
and we applied for residency.

801
00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:49.660
We couldn't go back to Australia, we couldn't leave Paris,

802
00:36:49.660 --> 00:36:52.210
and they closed all the borders here as well,

803
00:36:52.210 --> 00:36:54.260
two days after we arrived.

804
00:36:54.260 --> 00:36:57.280
And Paris was in lockdown.

805
00:36:57.280 --> 00:37:00.400
And it was interesting because after maybe six weeks,

806
00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:04.120
they opened Paris up again for parisians that were here.

807
00:37:04.120 --> 00:37:08.270
And we went to Versailles and we were the only 10 people,

808
00:37:08.270 --> 00:37:10.090
10 of us in Versailles.

809
00:37:10.090 --> 00:37:12.740
So we walked around Versailles, hall of mirrors, everything,

810
00:37:12.740 --> 00:37:15.020
there was no one else there.

811
00:37:15.020 --> 00:37:18.770
We went to, I think we shoot, oh, it's the next one.

812
00:37:18.770 --> 00:37:20.230
This is Andy at our apartment.

813
00:37:20.230 --> 00:37:22.380
We just sat on the window ledge and look out

814
00:37:22.380 --> 00:37:24.800
and our neighbours, we clapped for caters

815
00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:26.200
every single night.

816
00:37:26.200 --> 00:37:28.680
So everyone would come out, everyone would clap,

817
00:37:28.680 --> 00:37:31.720
wave to each other and they would buy pots and pans.

818
00:37:31.720 --> 00:37:34.970
And it was just a wonderful sense of community.

819
00:37:34.970 --> 00:37:36.520
And every night everyone would see each other

820
00:37:36.520 --> 00:37:38.240
at eight o'clock, every single night

821
00:37:38.240 --> 00:37:40.180
for weeks and weeks, and weeks.

822
00:37:40.180 --> 00:37:42.810
So that was kind of amazing and people would sing

823
00:37:42.810 --> 00:37:47.170
and it was really helped you when you were there.

824
00:37:47.170 --> 00:37:49.480
We were okay 'cause we just thought we we're lucky.

825
00:37:49.480 --> 00:37:51.430
We find somewhere to stay, we're just grateful

826
00:37:51.430 --> 00:37:54.790
to have a nice apartment to live in.

827
00:37:54.790 --> 00:37:59.720
And then we went to the Louvre, again, no one there,

828
00:37:59.720 --> 00:38:01.610
we stood in front of the Mona Lisa,

829
00:38:01.610 --> 00:38:05.710
no one in front of us, it was a surreal experience.

830
00:38:05.710 --> 00:38:08.480
And yeah, it's just, it was incredible.

831
00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:10.320
I mean, now tourists are back,

832
00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:13.260
I developed a little thing to photographing closed cafes,

833
00:38:13.260 --> 00:38:16.080
I don't know why, I just found the colours

834
00:38:16.080 --> 00:38:18.080
and everything really incredible.

835
00:38:18.080 --> 00:38:20.027
So yeah. That's why we're here

836
00:38:20.027 --> 00:38:22.330
and we have residency now and we're staying,

837
00:38:22.330 --> 00:38:27.148
so we're French now, but so. (chuckles)

838
00:38:27.148 --> 00:38:28.760
<v ->But you didn't give up on portraiture.</v>

839
00:38:28.760 --> 00:38:31.810
So the last series that we're gonna all,

840
00:38:31.810 --> 00:38:33.560
one of the last series, we might have enough time.

841
00:38:33.560 --> 00:38:36.693
I'm hoping that we can have a little look at the series

842
00:38:36.693 --> 00:38:38.740
that is non-portrait based,

843
00:38:38.740 --> 00:38:41.940
but let's have a quick look at the Christo portraits

844
00:38:41.940 --> 00:38:44.500
from the wrapping of the Arc de Triomphe.

845
00:38:44.500 --> 00:38:49.100
<v ->So recently, Christo passed away and his last project</v>

846
00:38:49.100 --> 00:38:50.660
he'd planned, which took them years,

847
00:38:50.660 --> 00:38:53.370
Christo and Jean-Claude his wife and was wrapping

848
00:38:53.370 --> 00:38:54.330
the Arc de Triomphe.

849
00:38:54.330 --> 00:38:58.653
And we were so lucky to be able to be in Paris and see this.

850
00:38:58.653 --> 00:39:00.060
And it was incredible.

851
00:39:00.060 --> 00:39:03.460
And there were lots of people around

852
00:39:03.460 --> 00:39:04.450
just taking pictures of it.

853
00:39:04.450 --> 00:39:09.000
And I noticed all of these monitors who were there as well.

854
00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:10.410
It was raining this day and I thought,

855
00:39:10.410 --> 00:39:12.370
Oh great, this is a chance for me to shoot portrait

856
00:39:12.370 --> 00:39:14.060
'cause I missed it so much.

857
00:39:14.060 --> 00:39:17.340
And they're actually dressed by Yohji Yamamoto

858
00:39:18.230 --> 00:39:20.560
who Christo always wore his clothes.

859
00:39:20.560 --> 00:39:23.770
So the monitor's uniforms were designed

860
00:39:23.770 --> 00:39:25.810
and he dressed them as well.

861
00:39:25.810 --> 00:39:28.180
They were giving out little squares of the fabric

862
00:39:28.180 --> 00:39:30.920
that is covering the Arc de Triomphe.

863
00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:32.950
And they were really interesting.

864
00:39:32.950 --> 00:39:34.940
Most of them were volunteers

865
00:39:34.940 --> 00:39:38.100
and they let me shoot a portrait, they were very sweet.

866
00:39:38.100 --> 00:39:39.550
I'd really miss shooting portraits

867
00:39:39.550 --> 00:39:42.820
because everyone wears masks, which I'm still happy about

868
00:39:42.820 --> 00:39:45.270
because you know, it's kept our numbers lower

869
00:39:45.270 --> 00:39:47.090
than some other places.

870
00:39:47.090 --> 00:39:50.950
And yeah, it was just great to be able to say to someone,

871
00:39:50.950 --> 00:39:52.260
can I just take your mask off?

872
00:39:52.260 --> 00:39:54.060
Can I just take a portrait of you?

873
00:39:54.060 --> 00:39:57.770
And they were just so wonderful and they were excited

874
00:39:57.770 --> 00:40:00.050
because this is great, we can have a picture of,

875
00:40:00.050 --> 00:40:01.850
we'll have a photograph of ourselves

876
00:40:02.720 --> 00:40:04.240
as a memory of this

877
00:40:04.240 --> 00:40:07.060
because they were so excited a lot from are art students

878
00:40:07.060 --> 00:40:12.030
to actually be a monitor for the day at the Christo,

879
00:40:13.270 --> 00:40:15.060
you know, wrapping Arc de Triomphe.

880
00:40:15.060 --> 00:40:16.713
So that was kind of amazing.

881
00:40:19.170 --> 00:40:20.410
<v ->We do have time to,</v>

882
00:40:20.410 --> 00:40:22.300
I just really wanna shoot through this new series

883
00:40:22.300 --> 00:40:24.350
because when we were chatting about this programme,

884
00:40:24.350 --> 00:40:27.930
you were saying that the lockdown and various other things

885
00:40:27.930 --> 00:40:31.890
has sort of made you think about your photographic practise

886
00:40:31.890 --> 00:40:34.870
and where you might shift from necessarily featuring

887
00:40:34.870 --> 00:40:38.350
portraits into sort of other projects.

888
00:40:38.350 --> 00:40:39.700
So can you just quickly, I mean,

889
00:40:39.700 --> 00:40:41.800
it's not really a topic that we can quickly go over

890
00:40:41.800 --> 00:40:43.810
'cause it's quite deep this project, but.

891
00:40:43.810 --> 00:40:45.720
<v ->I can probably I'll sum it up in a few lines.</v>

892
00:40:45.720 --> 00:40:46.750
<v ->All right.</v>

893
00:40:46.750 --> 00:40:50.240
<v ->When I, it's basically about an idea of memories.</v>

894
00:40:50.240 --> 00:40:51.710
So when I was young,

895
00:40:51.710 --> 00:40:55.110
I lived next to a forest and it was a forest and a lake.

896
00:40:55.110 --> 00:40:57.770
And I would go up to this forest even as a very young person

897
00:40:57.770 --> 00:41:00.820
on my own all the time, I'd just love wandering in it.

898
00:41:00.820 --> 00:41:02.030
It was amazing.

899
00:41:02.030 --> 00:41:04.780
And I was never afraid and no one was afraid.

900
00:41:04.780 --> 00:41:06.860
All the kids did it when I grew up.

901
00:41:06.860 --> 00:41:10.020
And then when I moved to London, it was very interesting

902
00:41:10.020 --> 00:41:12.280
when I came back up to the forest,

903
00:41:12.280 --> 00:41:16.580
my idea of the forest had completely changed.

904
00:41:16.580 --> 00:41:19.470
It's called "Memories of a Perilous Terrain."

905
00:41:19.470 --> 00:41:22.380
And it's really focuses on how,

906
00:41:22.380 --> 00:41:24.560
when we have knowledge and we gain fear

907
00:41:24.560 --> 00:41:26.610
from being in another place,

908
00:41:26.610 --> 00:41:30.050
we see our place of comfort completely differently.

909
00:41:30.050 --> 00:41:33.440
I would not feel comfortable walking alone in any forest now

910
00:41:33.440 --> 00:41:37.380
or, you know, any kind of landscape like that.

911
00:41:37.380 --> 00:41:40.720
And I saw it's a much darker place, really.

912
00:41:40.720 --> 00:41:44.520
It's like those, the fear invades your thoughts

913
00:41:44.520 --> 00:41:46.470
when you go to these places.

914
00:41:46.470 --> 00:41:48.900
So it's this idea that, you know, people always say,

915
00:41:48.900 --> 00:41:50.010
you can never go back.

916
00:41:50.010 --> 00:41:53.170
And I think when you have something beautiful

917
00:41:53.170 --> 00:41:56.170
as a child that you remember really well,

918
00:41:56.170 --> 00:41:58.330
even to your adolescence,

919
00:41:58.330 --> 00:42:02.410
when you are an adult, but you have different experiences,

920
00:42:02.410 --> 00:42:05.950
you can never really return to that innocent view

921
00:42:05.950 --> 00:42:10.950
of the world because things changed for you in such a way.

922
00:42:11.170 --> 00:42:14.810
And it's not something I really realised until I began

923
00:42:14.810 --> 00:42:18.020
to see the darker side of things

924
00:42:18.020 --> 00:42:20.540
and what would actually happen in these forest places,

925
00:42:20.540 --> 00:42:23.550
and happened in these deserted mountain roads and things.

926
00:42:23.550 --> 00:42:28.550
So it was quite interesting to approach a project

927
00:42:29.060 --> 00:42:32.590
a non-portrait project from this way.

928
00:42:32.590 --> 00:42:34.760
So I'm gonna be really interested in the psyche.

929
00:42:34.760 --> 00:42:37.080
So I think that it runs from a portrait,

930
00:42:37.080 --> 00:42:40.330
but it kinda runs through this as well

931
00:42:40.330 --> 00:42:42.190
and how I perceive things.

932
00:42:42.190 --> 00:42:45.270
And maybe I'm a very optimistic person,

933
00:42:45.270 --> 00:42:48.430
but sometimes I do see the dark side of things,

934
00:42:48.430 --> 00:42:50.460
you know, a bit too clearly.

935
00:42:50.460 --> 00:42:54.610
So I think it's just, I thought it'd be interesting to see

936
00:42:54.610 --> 00:42:57.693
how would that look if I tried to photograph it in some way.

937
00:42:58.900 --> 00:43:00.840
<v ->And most of these were taken in Alaska,</v>

938
00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:02.140
is that right, Nikki?

939
00:43:02.140 --> 00:43:05.793
<v ->Yeah. So a lot of these were taken and in Juneau,</v>

940
00:43:06.680 --> 00:43:08.580
just amazingly beautiful,

941
00:43:08.580 --> 00:43:10.710
but the strangest place I've ever been,

942
00:43:10.710 --> 00:43:12.470
I can't imagine living there.

943
00:43:12.470 --> 00:43:16.173
I spoke to people who did live there and they were,

944
00:43:17.510 --> 00:43:19.833
it was almost dreamlike, it really was,

945
00:43:21.410 --> 00:43:22.400
it must be very different when

946
00:43:22.400 --> 00:43:23.800
the cruise ships come in the summer,

947
00:43:23.800 --> 00:43:28.800
but in the winter it has a very dark dreamlike quality.

948
00:43:29.120 --> 00:43:31.163
It's like watching one of those Danish thrillers, you know,

949
00:43:31.163 --> 00:43:33.300
that you see and they're always very dark

950
00:43:33.300 --> 00:43:36.140
and it really had that sense about it,

951
00:43:36.140 --> 00:43:38.360
and when you drive up the road and it's the end of the road,

952
00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:41.520
it says the road ends here or end of the road.

953
00:43:41.520 --> 00:43:43.230
And you just feel, I can't escape.

954
00:43:43.230 --> 00:43:45.500
It reminded me of a British TV show

955
00:43:45.500 --> 00:43:47.500
when I was young called "The Prisoner,"

956
00:43:47.500 --> 00:43:49.600
you know, where you can't escape from the town,

957
00:43:49.600 --> 00:43:51.360
no matter how often he tries.

958
00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:55.210
And I felt it was the best place as a metaphor

959
00:43:55.210 --> 00:43:58.163
for how I felt about childhood places

960
00:43:58.163 --> 00:43:59.793
that I would return to.

961
00:44:01.070 --> 00:44:02.270
<v Gil>Brilliant.</v>

962
00:44:02.270 --> 00:44:03.410
Thank you so much, Nikki.

963
00:44:03.410 --> 00:44:05.300
I think we've run out of time,

964
00:44:05.300 --> 00:44:07.420
I could sit and listen to your stories all day

965
00:44:07.420 --> 00:44:10.300
and look at your work, it's absolutely beautiful.

966
00:44:10.300 --> 00:44:13.270
Thank you so much for joining us and staying up all night

967
00:44:13.270 --> 00:44:17.599
and early into the morning to talk to us about your work.

968
00:44:17.599 --> 00:44:20.430
<v ->Thanks a lot Gilly, it was awesome, it's a pleasure.</v>

969
00:44:20.430 --> 00:44:21.850
<v ->So lovely to catch up with you again.</v>

970
00:44:21.850 --> 00:44:23.660
And I really hope that we can catch up next time

971
00:44:23.660 --> 00:44:27.550
you're back in Australia and I look forward to seeing what

972
00:44:27.550 --> 00:44:29.310
the rest of your adventures from Paris

973
00:44:29.310 --> 00:44:32.620
and here on in unfold.

974
00:44:32.620 --> 00:44:33.904
<v ->It can only get better.</v>

975
00:44:33.904 --> 00:44:36.110
<v ->(chuckles) Thank you so much</v>

976
00:44:36.110 --> 00:44:38.220
and thank you to everybody joining us today

977
00:44:38.220 --> 00:44:40.883
on Facebook and on Zoom.

978
00:44:41.730 --> 00:44:45.760
It was just such a lovely time to actually sit

979
00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:49.170
and listen, and look at portraits, and look at photographs

980
00:44:49.170 --> 00:44:51.290
for a 45 minutes over our lunch break.

981
00:44:51.290 --> 00:44:53.690
So thank you all for joining us, Matt,

982
00:44:53.690 --> 00:44:55.680
we'll be popping some links into the chat

983
00:44:55.680 --> 00:44:58.160
and on Facebook and in Zoom,

984
00:44:58.160 --> 00:45:00.080
if you'd like to follow up some more of Nikki's work,

985
00:45:00.080 --> 00:45:02.240
we can pop her website in there.

986
00:45:02.240 --> 00:45:05.120
And for future programmes, please jump on our website,

987
00:45:05.120 --> 00:45:07.872
portrait.gov.au or follow us on social media

988
00:45:07.872 --> 00:45:11.700
@PortraitAU and join in another.

989
00:45:11.700 --> 00:45:12.600
We've got another couple

990
00:45:12.600 --> 00:45:16.170
of these professional photographic series coming up

991
00:45:16.170 --> 00:45:18.530
on Thursdays, coming in the next,

992
00:45:18.530 --> 00:45:21.070
up until about mid December.

993
00:45:21.070 --> 00:45:22.960
And then we'll be wrapping up for a little bit of Christmas,

994
00:45:22.960 --> 00:45:24.400
but we hope to see you again,

995
00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:26.920
back in our virtual space next year.

996
00:45:26.920 --> 00:45:29.210
So thank you to everybody for joining us once again

997
00:45:29.210 --> 00:45:32.560
and stay safe and hopefully we'll see you online again soon.

998
00:45:32.560 --> 00:45:33.393
Thank you.